How far would you walk for Whale?

[rah]

Agreed, later placement is better planned.
ANother big difference is that in MP we play 2x so for a fast start you don't need the perfect location. One trades special is enough. If it's land based, we have a tendency to plant the city right on it, so our opponents don't come along and settle on it depriving you city of it. This is usually the provocation for some intense fighting and fun. Especially if it's that gold near by.

[solo]

Right! With 2x it is even better to found early, since you get a jump on production, too.

Peaster,

Below is a save of the start from a recent game I played. There were not any whales or other specials within view, but I considered the area fine for initial cities. Later, I did discover that exploring in almost any direction uncovered a whale or trade special of equal value. In fact, there were 3 accessible whales not too far from the opening position. With this start, and without looking for or using whales, I got to Monarchy in 2050 BC. You may want to try it the other way, just to compare, i.e. find your whale(s) and see if you can get to Monarchy any sooner. To eliminate the random luck factor, do not tip any huts, since I didn't tip any either. Here is screenshot.

[solo]

Oh, and here is a save of the start.

[Peaster]

I am glad this has provoked such a lively discussion, but I wish I had stated the question more clearly. I was not thinking of the starting position. I was assuming the whale was visible and that all the nearby, unused terrain was pretty useless. [see reply to rjm].

Also, getting to monarchy is a high priority for me, but birthing cities is even higher. [see shield vs beaker remarks]

Anyway, I accept your challenge! I will let you know about my monarchy and growth rate stats.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Re: Re: Walking for whales

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers


True, but under the strict early landing rules, there is no hut tipping, so walking your settler a long distance has a much higher opportunity cost.

RJM at Sleeper's

I didn't realize this was an early landing question. Doesn't seem like much fun, having to ignore all the huts!

I am a big believer in getting cities down fast - I like to spit settlers out pretty fast and get to 5-6 cities quickly. However... there are ways to catch up if a nice city site isn't visible at the start. If you find some NONs in huts, you have instant garrison/martial law units and when you found a city, you can start a Settler right away. Or if you come up with some cash in huts, you can rush Settlers and catch up that way.

The other problem I have with founding on indifferent starting terrain is that when I finally do find some specials, the corruption makes them much less useful. For the same reason, I've stopped sending my Settlers in opposite directions when looking for city sites - because the second city will contribute virtually no arrows in the early game.

All this is based on SP... in MP, on small maps, I'm sure that wandering more than 2-3 turns is near suicidal.

@ Peaster - if the whale is visible, its not much of a walk... I'd definitely found my city in such a way as to take advantage of the whale.

[Peaster]

@solo: I did 4 tests. Only Test B seems really worth reporting, but here's the all the data. After Test A), I decided to use 1650BC as a benchmark year to compare civ size, etc. I did not make special efforts to get trade arrows, except to get monarchy in pre-oedo years.

In test A), I could not find a whale for 16 turns! Also, Rome had a 4-5 turn Elvis concert when a warrior came back way too late - because I almost forgot the no huts rule.

I think B) seems a fair test. I aimed my settlers at darkness and found one whale in 3750. I didn't find a second until 2750 (after my 3rd city).

In C) I cheated, and went straight for the 2 whales that I knew about.

In D) I played according my usual style, probably similar to the way you played the test. But I never saw a whale. Also, a barbarian archer threw me off quite a bit, killing three warriors on a mountain, before I could finish him. I should probably repeat D), but I'm a little tired.


A) [Bad luck]
* Monarchy in 1450, 5 cities + 1.6 settlers (2 very soon)

B) Random walk until whale(s) spotted
* Monarchy in 2050, 5 cities + 1.9 settlers
* By 1650, 7 cities, 19sh/t

C) [Cheat!]
* Monarchy in 2050
* By 1650, 7 cities + 1Settler, 22sh/t

D) Playing normally, with rather bad luck
* Monarchy in 1650, 5 cities + 1 settler, 17sh/t

[solo]

Peaster,

I think B) is a good comparison, and if one can be sure a whale is within easy reach (sorry I missed your comment on that), then I'll agree that it's probably worth walking over to it.

In a game where huts are being used, there can be a slight advantage to founding cities first, since this opens up earlier chances of nomads and tribes, which mean instant cities. Plus if huts are deferred until the 2nd tech is being researched, the first tech coming from a hut will actually speed up the progress to Monarchy, since no detours will have to made when researching the next two. The only downside is the chance of tipping barbs.

If huts are tipped before founding any cities, barbs are avoided, but unwelcome techs this early will delay Monarchy quite a bit. Before learning the first tech, the odds favor tipping unwanted techs, too.

[rjmatsleepers]

Re: Re: Re: Walking for whales

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man


I didn't realize this was an early landing question. Doesn't seem like much fun, having to ignore all the huts!

The original question wasn't in an early landing context. I suppose I meant to say "if you happen to be playing an early landing game, there is no hut tipping ..."

As to whether ignoring huts is fun, that depends on the game. It certainly makes no sense to ignore them if you are playing a conquest game (I originally said you should only ignore them if there is a rule against hut tipping, but Solo has pointed out that you may still choose to ignore them under some circumstances in a landing game.)

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo
Below is a save of the start from a recent game I played. There were not any whales or other specials within view, but I considered the area fine for initial cities. Later, I did discover that exploring in almost any direction uncovered a whale or trade special of equal value. In fact, there were 3 accessible whales not too far from the opening position. With this start, and without looking for or using whales, I got to Monarchy in 2050 BC. You may want to try it the other way, just to compare, i.e. find your whale(s) and see if you can get to Monarchy any sooner. To eliminate the random luck factor, do not tip any huts, since I didn't tip any either. Here is screenshot.

I tried this. Without knowing the location of the whales I founded my first city in the start position and moved my settler west, founding my second city on the river. This lead to Monarchy in 2150 BC. I tried again, this time moving the first settler to take advantage of the whale site and still building the second city on the river. City three exploited the second whale and city four was on the river. This time I got to Monarch in 2250 BC. (Actually I discovered Monarchy in 2350 BC, so I didn't need to max out beakers quite as much as I did.)

This seems to establish (IMHO) that it's worth moving for the whale site.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Peaster]

rjm: do you remember any other statistics from your tests ? eg how many cities you had?

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

This seems to establish (IMHO) that it's worth moving for the whale site.

RJM at Sleeper's

Establish??

Not unless there are actually whales to be found close by, something that you will not know when the game begins.

All this establishes (IMHO) is that if you get lucky you will do better. If you don't find those whales then you will be behind. Some games there seems to be a whale every 4-5 tiles; in others whales are more scarce than RL oceans after the Japanese whaling fleet has done its thing.

I think one thing hasn't been mentioned yet. This is La Fayette's Three Arrow strategy (Great Library). I will drop the first two cities as soon as I find sites that yield three or more arrows each. This way, progress towards Monarchy is assured.

Monk

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk


Establish??

Not unless there are actually whales to be found close by, something that you will not know when the game begins.

All this establishes (IMHO) is that if you get lucky you will do better. If you don't find those whales then you will be behind. Some games there seems to be a whale every 4-5 tiles; in others whales are more scarce than RL oceans after the Japanese whaling fleet has done its thing.

I think one thing hasn't been mentioned yet. This is La Fayette's Three Arrow strategy (Great Library). I will drop the first two cities as soon as I find sites that yield three or more arrows each. This way, progress towards Monarchy is assured.

Monk

Good point about the 3 arrows strategy. I try to play following the DaveV size 2 method (maximize food at size 1, maximize shields at size 2). Obviously having a whale is the best of all worlds - a whale would get worked if you were seeking to maximize any of food, shields or arrows. But sans whale or fish, your growth will be pretty slow with that second worker on the ocean.

Playing on big maps, I will often start on completely landlocked terrain - no rivers or oceans visible, and sometimes none within 2-3 turns walking or more. In such a case... would any of us settle in a location with no arrows at all? I'll always walk to find some kind of special - even if not a whale - or at least a river.

[Bloody Monk]

Obviously.

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Peaster
rjm: do you remember any other statistics from your tests ? eg how many cities you had?

I used my standard approach which is to build a warrior followed by a settler in each of my first two cities. I then build 2 more cities each of which gets a warrior (or sometimes a phalanx). I prepare to build a fifth city as soon as I can revolt to monarchy. However, I stopped playing these games when I revolted to Monarchy, so in each case I had only four cities. The only other statistic I remember is that I discovered my second tech in 3400 BC in the non-whale test and in 3450 BC when I used the whale.

In the "whale case" I maxed out beakers once I was researching Monarchy - 3 beakers from 2 of my cities and 2 from the other 2, to give me 10 beakers per turn towards the 60 needed. This was perhaps a bit OTT.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk


Establish??

Not unless there are actually whales to be found close by, something that you will not know when the game begins.

All this establishes (IMHO) is that if you get lucky you will do better. If you don't find those whales then you will be behind. Some games there seems to be a whale every 4-5 tiles; in others whales are more scarce than RL oceans after the Japanese whaling fleet has done its thing.

I think one thing hasn't been mentioned yet. This is La Fayette's Three Arrow strategy (Great Library). I will drop the first two cities as soon as I find sites that yield three or more arrows each. This way, progress towards Monarchy is assured.

Monk

Yes, "establish" is a bit strong. It is crucial that you "know" there is a good site reasonably close and in my first try from this start I didn't actually find the nearby whales in time for my second city. Of course on my second try, I knew exactly where the whales and the river were which does make it a bit easier.

I can't remember the details of the Three Arrows - sorry LF. Certainly city sites that produce 3 arrows and hence 2 beakers are the key to early discovery of monarchy. This little experiment has made me more inclined to walk around a bit at the begining if the initial site will only produce a single beaker. (I'm not sure whether I'd have the courage to do it in a competition game though!)

RJM at Sleeper's

[Edit: As far as three arrow sites are concerned, I mean sites that produce 3 arrows (2 beakers) with your worker in a normal position - ie not on an ocean tile without a special.]