September Civ2 Tournament: ZULU to ALPHA: SPOILER Thread

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
DaveV - like solo I too misread your kill date at first glance -- WOW! - you killed em faster than I found em!

Stu

Yup, i misread the BC finish, too. "How did you manage Happiness" would have been my question if it had been an AD finish, but by 1250 BC, you probably jumped them all before they were ready to receive "visitors." Nice game DaveV, even if....

Both solo and rjm remarked...

I too have ONLY found Germans, Egyptians, Romans and Sioux,

.

Could it be that the promised Americans and Greeks never were assigned starting positions?? No wonders, spaceship game with 4 AI, no restarts!! Quite a challange I think.

I am having trouble overcoming the inertia (from the finish of the last game) and have not started yet. This one looks to be a bag of tricks.

Monk

[solo]

I can read the rules okay, but not the results!

1250 BC is a big improvement! Nice going, DaveV.

[Zenon]

I have just reached railroads in 260 AD. I have chosen a "robust" approach with currently 24 cities. The expansion was not easy without wonders and none of my cities is beyond size 8. Progress is slow, not only because of the lack of wonders but also because all AI are sitting on the same continent. There is still a lot to do for the development of my cities. But it should give a nice comparison with the leaner games.

2 of the AI didn´t make it at the start. It happens when not enough good starting positions are in some distance from each other. On very small maps it is frequent.

RJM, for a no wonder game your OCC looks very promising. Keep going!

DaveV, your 1250 BC conquest is amazing. This would certainly have been the winning game if the rules had allowed conquest. Would you care to tell us more? Did you go for a hut chase in the beginning?

Zenon

[Peaster]

Originally posted by Zenon

DaveV, your 1250 BC conquest is amazing. This would certainly have been the winning game if the rules had allowed conquest. Would you care to tell us more? Did you go for a hut chase in the beginning?

I agree! Great result! I would like to hear more about your game, too.

I don't know the first thing about EL games, so I will sit this one out, but I am steadily learning the art of conquest. I am nowhere near DaveV's result, but managed a 300AD victory yesterday (on a different map).

@Zenon: Thanks for posting your saves from the last tournament. I am still amazed by that game, especially your civ's productivity.

[solo]

Zenon,

Well this will be an interesting comparison, since I was also at Railroad at the same time. I still only have 8 cities, but each one is fully developed. They produce enough beakers now to make an advance every two turns until the end, and each one is averaging 10 shields per turn. When augmented by freight deliveries, I am getting some one turn advances. Income has been so poor that most things could not be rushed until just recently.

How about you? How many beakers are you producing and what is your current rate of research?

[rjmatsleepers]

The dream fades and dies

In AD 1901 I had 35 freights stock piled and was about to discover fusion power. Unfortunately the Germans discovered it one turn before I did. They swiftly followed with a sneak attack having ended the alliance a few turns earlier. Despite all my allies leaping to my defence, I lost a number of units before obtaining peace by agreeing to declare war on the Sioux. (I was attempting to remain spotless, but I couldn't survive a war with the Germans so I dropped to honerable.)

Once the Germans built Apollo I was able to build one spaceship part per turn. I eventually launched with an arrival date of 1962. But shortly after this, the Germans launched with an arrival date of 1961 .

The result was close enough (and I can point to enough errors on my part) that I'm sure an OCC is possible, but it's up to someone else actually to do it.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Zenon]

RJM, sorry to hear that. That´s bad luck you had with the Germans. Anyway, a 1962 landing is a very honorable result for an OCC witout wonders and with all AI on the same continent.

Solo, my cities are producing about 150 shields per turn, so its an average of about 6 or 7 shields per city. Using the slider I could have either 585 tax or 495 science. Science costs are at 589. The problem is that I have to keep lux at 40%. At the moment the rest goes to science allowing advances in 2 turns to get to corporation as soon as possible. But with the miniscule trade returns (even worse now with railroads) I will have to divert beakers to tax soon. Most of my first generation cities (1-12) are still busy building libraries (2 universities) while my second generation cities (13-24) are still trying to get to celebration, adding trade routes and building market places. I hope I will have most of them celebrating within the next 10 turns. The whole approach is new for me and I don´t know exactly where I will end. But I like the challenge!

Zenon

[DaveV]

Thanks for the compliments, all. I went after huts relentlessly, delaying building cities until I had cleared the initial huts. I didn't use HutFinder, but frequently referred to a printout which showed hut locations on a default map. I was lucky to find the Romans and Sioux early and kill them with hut chariots, but I picked the wrong direction to explore afterward.

One strange thing I noticed is that I couldn't get a map trade before 2000BC, even though the AIs were Enthuastic.

Here's my log:

3950 Hut at (38,24) yields Chariot (NONE).
3850 Hut at (44,26) yields Archer (NONE); Hut at (36,30) yields Horsemen (NONE).
3800 Hut at (42,32) yields Horseback Riding; Hut at (30,30) yields Chariot (NONE).
3750 Hut at (24,28) yields Archers (NONE).
3700 Rome (flagged) discovered at (19,29). Romans offer peace, I decline.
3650 Little Bighorn (flagged) discovered at (34,44). Sioux offer peace, I decline. Rome destroyed, Romans exterminated. Zimbabwe founded at (37,27); Ulundi founded at (42,30).
3600 Little Bighorn destroyed, attacking Chariot is promoted to Veteran; Sioux exterminated.
3450 Hut at (22,34) yields Archers (Zimbabwe). Hmm, the remaining civs are far away...
3400 Polytheism discovered, Code of Laws next. Hut at (23,17) is empty.
3300 Hut at (12,26) is empty.
3150 Hut at (23,45) contains 25 gold.
3100 Code of Laws discovered, Monarchy next. Hut at (6,24) yields 50 gold.
3050 Hut at (49,17) yields Archers (NONE).

Here's the map at 3000BC:


2900 Germans (Uncooperative) encountered, offer to trade Map Making for Code of Laws. I agree, take Map Making instead of Masonry or Pottery. I gift them Ceremonial Burial to get to Receptive, but don't want to give away Bronze Working or Polytheism to get to Cordial. They refuse to trade maps .
2850 Hut at (17,43) yields Pottery.
2800 Elephant produced in Zimbabwe. Hut at (31,13) yields nomads.
2750 Elephant produced in Ulundi. Bapedi founded at (33,13).
2700 Hut at (15,49) yields Mysticism. Give Mysticism to Germans, now Enthusiastic; they have no need of my useless maps (?).
2550 Hut at (43,15) is empty; hut at (11,15) yields barbarian Legion, which kills my (supported) Archer.
2500 Hut at (11,43) yields Archers (Zimbabwe). Enemy civ proximity detector says: Cold.
2450 Hut at (45,9) yields Masonry.
2400 Hut at (55,17) yields 50 gold.
2300 Hut at (10,32) yields Mathematics.
2250 Egyptians encountered, they offer peace and I accept. They are Enthusiastic after receiving Alphabet and Map Making, but refuse to trade maps. Germans demand that I leave the vicinity of Leipzig (65,13).
2200 Hut at (37,41) yields Seafaring. Rushbuild Explorers in Ulundi and Bapedi.
2150 Berlin discovered at (60,10). Germans demand I withdraw from Berlin's environs.
2100 Germans give 50 gold tribute.
2050 Egyptians agree to exchange maps , refuse to pay tribute. Germans refuse to pay tribute. Tacitus reports the biggest civilizations: Zulus, Germans, Egyptians. Big surprise...
2000 Germans (cordial) still refuse to exchange maps . I'll just find their cities the hard way. Hut at (43,43) yields Monarchy.
1950 Germans (cordial) still refuse to exchange maps; my elephant attacks Berlin, breaking our treaty. My archer destroys Berlin, 12 gold plundered.
1900 Leipzig captured, 25 gold plundered, Germans eliminated.
1850 Arrrggghhh! I forgot to revolt . Rushbuild barracks in Leipzig. Egyptians pay 25 gold tribute.
1800 Hut at (49,43) yields nomads.
1750 Writing discovered, Literacy next.
1700 Hlobane founded at (). Revolt. Egyptian force my explorers near Memphis to withdraw to Hlobane.
1650 Establish monarchy. Hut at (55,45) yields Literacy.
1500 Hut at (54,34) yields Astronomy.
1450 My elephant attacks Memphis, breaking the treaty. Memphis is destroyed. Egyptian move an elephant outside Leipzig.
1400 Thebes destroyed, Egyptians survive. I gift them up to Enthuiastic, but they refuse to trade maps.
1350 Egyptian destroy Leipzig (along with two elephants and an explorer ). Heliopolis discovered at (67,31).
1250 Heliopolis destroyed, 24 gold plundered. Egyptians exterminated. Game over, score is 1312, 170%.

Here's the map at the start of the 1250BC turn. Note the Egyptian elephant in the upper right that just destroyed Leipzig.


And here are some saves:

[Peaster]

DaveV,

I saw something about this strategy in an old thread and wondered if you had it in mind when you suggested "no wonders". Would this strategy still work on an island map? Is that a risk you just have to take?

[rjmatsleepers]

Here is the launch save from my (failed) OCC attempt. I have become converted to the benefit of discovering refrigeration and building a supermarket. I think I may give it a try in my next EL attempt.

RJM at Sleeper's

[DaveV]

Peaster,

Actually, I think I advocated no huts and no wonders, to avoid just this kind of situation. As for the island map - it would be slower at first, but map making can be reached pretty early.

I remember several years ago when Rah and Ming were playing a "nomad challenge" game where you were not allowed to build any cities. I recall that Rah won an island game by capturing an AI city and building a boat there.

[solo]

DaveV,

Delaying that first city works great, since huts build a good sized army faster. You played this one to perfection.

RJM,

I looked over your save, and can only fault you for not using diplomats to establish an embassy with each AI, I think this would have allowed you to trade for a few more techs, and maybe launching early enough to beat Paul and myself! Still, a mighty good effort. You picked the best site and got the most out of this OCC game.

Zenon,

Thanks for the details. I have finished my game now, and am thinking the robust approach will allow you to land sooner than I did. Results of my game follow:

No wonders! This is uncharted territory in EL games. We tried this once back in an OCC comparison game, but the best an SSC could get was about 250 beakers, which only meant a tech every 4 or 5 turns, so trying OCC was not the answer. Robust Monarchy has been very successful in EL games with wonders, but I was afraid that happiness would become unmanageable without the help of HG or MC. However, having many cities was the best chance of obtaining enough beakers for 1 turn advances. Could all these cities be kept content and still produce enough science? I was in doubt.

How much city science was needed, and how could this be obtained the most efficient way? On a small map, I figured that 650 beakers was a realistic goal, since this would allow at least an advance every two turns at the end. So it became a matter of how many cities were needed to achieve this. Well developed size 8 cities could probably produce about 80 beakers when equipped with a library and university, so it looked like 8 cities would be enough, which was also the maximum allowed in Republic before causing extra unhappiness. Later, during Democracy, there would be no harm adding 4 more cities to add a little cushion and to expand trading opportunities, so this became my plan: to develop 8 cities and make the most out of them, and to add 4 more later during Democracy. I was hoping that after freights were available, trade could augment city science to get a string of 1 turn advances.

Well, things went pretty much according to plan, except that it turned out trade was limited by this 1 continent map. By the time I had uncovered most of the map, I was really doubting that trade would be good enough to make my plan work, and was wishing that I had started off with a robust Monarchy approach instead. In fact, income from trades was so low, that almost nothing could be rushed and that the benefits of adding 4 more cities later in the game under Democracy would not be enough to justify the expenses; so I stuck to improving my original 8 cities and limped along, earning just enough with trade to cover expenses. I did build a small ninth city, which was used as a station and as a repository for freights to build Apollo. While waiting for my ship to arrive, this small city was destroyed by the AI, so I think I’ll be the only player in this tournament to arrive without any wonders at all! Apollo was just a memory by that time.

Considering how poorly trade went, the game did go a bit better than expected, since I did mangage a good string of one turn advances, and almost got to Space Flight before 1000 AD. It took two more turns to earn this tech, and 5 more after that to get a minimal ship launched. Every resource was used, and all scientific city improvements had to be sold off just to build a 15-1-1-1-1-1 ship. By this time, I only had 28 gold left! I had to stop research before getting Fusion Power, but was finally able to launch in 1140 and arrive at AC in 1188.

This game was all about making do with less and using resources as efficiently as possible, but I was impressed with how quickly a launch could be made without the help of wonders and an SSC. The earliest EL comparison games having these advantages were not as quick, and it could be that a fully developed SSC may not be the very best plan in regular EL games. Many resources are devoted to nourishing a full-fledged SSC that might be better spent in other ways. The relative success of the robust Monarchy approach over a more leaner early Republic in the most recent EL games may suggest that an intensive ICS type strategy may be worth investigating, too.

Anyways, it was an eye-opener in this game to see how quickly a ship could be launched without using wonders or an SSC. Following is a log of my game.

BC years

The early plan was to expand to 6 cities quickly. Then each city built a settler to make roads, mines, etc. Then each city built a temple. After trade was discovered, each city built some caravans and set them off for trade. Then they started working on colosseums. Two more cities were added in time to reach size 3 by about 500 BC, when I planned to switch to Republic and begin we love growth. By this time, most colosseums were almost built.

3950 hut – archer
3850 hut – archer
3800 hut- chariot, Zimbabwe
3750 hut – archer
3700 Ulundi
3600 Code of Laws, hut – Map Making
3500 contact Romans – peace, give tech, share maps
contact Sioux – ditto
3450 hut – nomad
3400 hut – archer
3300 Bapedi
3250 hut – chariot
3200 Monarchy, hut – nomads
3150 hut – archer
3100 revolution; Romans & Sioux – give tech, share maps
3050 govt. to Monarchy; contact Germans – trade for Masonry, give tech, share maps; hut – archer
2950 hut – horseman
2850 Hlobane; hut – Isandhlwana (a dustbowl); hut – 50g
2800 Mysticism, hut – Currency
2750 hut – 50g; hut – Horseback Riding;
Germans – give tech, share maps, Pottery as tribute
Romans & Sioux – give tech, share maps, no tribute

Ugh, 2 unwanted techs on the same turn.

2650 Intombe
2600 hut – Construction
2550 hut – barbs
2450 hut – Seafaring, hut – Mathematics
2400 Mpondo
2350 Isandhlwana builds settlers and disbands; contact Eqyptians – give tech, share maps

Where can the other two AI be? Turns out nowhere.

2150 hut – Trade
2100 Writing
1750 hut – Warrior Code

This completes the list of dreaded and unwanted techs!

1650 hut – 50g, embassy established with the Sioux

MPE was not allowed in this game, but dipomats were, and this allowed embassies to be established early with each AI. Earlier experience in EL games has proven that having embassies is vital. In turns out they were cheaper in this game, too. 4 diplomats vs. 4 camels!

1600 embassy with Romans, hut – The Wheel
1450 hut – 50g
1400 hut – Astronomy; Romans – give tech, share maps
1200 Literacy; embassy with Germans
1150 hut – 50g, hut – Engineering
1100 Ngome
1050 hut – 50g
950 embassy with Egyptians – give tech, share maps; Germans – trade for The Republic;
Romans – give tech, 50g tribute; Sioux – give tech, 75g
875 hut – barbs
850 Romans – trade for Iron Working, share maps; Egyptians & Sioux – give tech, share maps
800 Swazi
700 hut – legion
600 Bridge Building
575 Germans – trade for Philosophy & Banking, share maps;
Romans & Sioux – give tech, share maps
550 hut – legion
525 Romans – 50g
450 Romans – 50g; Germans – 100g; Sioux – 75g; revolution
425 govt. to Despotism; Romans – 25g; Germans – 50g; Sioux – 75g;
govt. to Republic, commence we love for all 8 cities.
Cloth(d) to Veii, 54g

350 spice(d) to Little Bighorn, 276g

Swazi had been founded right above Little Bighorn and a connecting road was added to boost payoffs. I had big hopes of using connecting roads and rails to boost payoffs and trade route values. Unfortunately, there were not many matching supply and demand opportunuties during the game, but when matches were available, they did produce the best trades of the game.

Although payoffs ended up being very disappointing, enough gold was made to keep my cities running, but there was rarely any extra gold available for rushbuilding freights and city improvements or for financing further expansion.

325 University; copper(d) to Rome, 140g; wine(d) to Leipzig, 200g
225 Theory of Gravity; beads(d) to Little Bighorn, 192g; silver(d) to Thebes, 210g
200 Economics; gems(d) to Wounded Knee, 192g; wine(d) to Cedar Creek, 220g
175 Medicine
75 Feudalism; silk(d) to Bapedi, 144g
50 silk(d) to Swazi, 180g
25 Chemistry

AD years

By this time, all techs prior to Invention-Navigation had been acquired. Cities were adding libraries and universities and exploration was complete, revealing a very fertile area west of the Romans and a small island to the north of this area, which could have been very good colony sites. However, my original 8 cities still needed a lot of work and all I had for a fleet were two triremes. I just could not justify the time and expense to expand in those two areas. Things might have turned out differently, if these areas had been discovered earlier in the game, or if nearby huts had produced an advanced tribe or a nomad to get things going, but that’s the way things go. Strategy is often modified by uncontrollable game events.

1 beads(d) to Wounded Knee, 144g
20 gold(d) to Wounded Knee, 222g; gold(d) to Veii, 222g; copper(d) to Konigsberg, 168

A flurry of trades before Invention to earn some extra gold to tide me over until freights were available later.

40 Invention

Without a fleet, I head straight for Democracy.

80 Democracy
100 copper(d) to Leipzig, 132g; copper(d) to Mpondo, 66g
120 Navigation, copper(d) to Antium, 64g; revolution;
All AI – give tech, share maps, 100g tribute from the Egyptians
140 govt. to Democracy

Now science can be set to 100% to gurantee a tech every two turns.

160 salt(d) to Konigsberg, 98g
180 Physics
220 Steam Engine
280 Magnetism; Romans – trade for Railroad, share maps; copper(d) to Berlin, 92g
320 Gunpowder; dye(d) to Little Bighorn, 87g; Egyptians & Sioux – give tech, share maps
340 Industrialization
360 Tugela; coal(d) to Leipzig, 97g

Tugela was my ninth and last city, used as a station and for building Apollo. There were not enough resources or time to add any more cities and benefit from having them.

380 The Corporation
420 Metallurgy; All AI – give tech, share maps; gold(d) to Intombe, 68g
440 coal(d) to Swazi, 102g
460 Refining; dye(d) to Leipzig, 96g; copper(d) to Veii, 110g
480 Electricity
500 coal(d) to Konigsberg, 33g
520 Electronics

Allowing an extra happy citizen. Each city was size 7 and had its library and university. Science was set and left at 100%. I was a little short on my goal for total beakers, so decided to add superhighways to my capital when Automobile was discovered later. Right now freight deliveries are adding enough beakers for 1 turn advances on most turns.

540 salt(d) to Bapedi, 112g
560 Steel
600 Explosives; wine(d) to Hamburg,117g; cloth(d) to Rome, 100g; gold(d) to Mpondo, 160g

Things were so tight, I did not feel I could take time off from building freights to convert all my settlers into engineers. I had enough settlers to add railroads in time to be of use, but was lacking enough freights to put aside for Apollo and spaceship parts.

620 Combustion; dye(d) to Cedar Creek, 118g; spice(d) to Leipzig, 174g
640 Atomic Theory
660 silver(d) to Berlin, 172g
680 Automobile; All AI – give tech, share maps; silver(d) to Berlin, 172g;
gold(d) to Munich, 146g; coal(d) to Bapedi, 75g; coal(d) to Thebes, 95g

I could not afford to add superhighways anywhere else except in my capital. It’s essential now to make enough freights to build Apollo and the ship for a timely launch. I don’t want to have the last SS tech and then have to wait many turns to build the last few SS parts.

700 Chivalry, copper(d) to Little Bighorn, 147g; oil(d) to Little Bighorn, 257g
720 Leadership; Germans – give tech, share maps
740 Romans – trade for Conscription; oil(d) to Little Bighorn, 215g
760 Mass Production, copper(d) to Wounded Knee, 160g; spice(d) to Berlin, 132g;
Germans – trade for Tactics

780 Nuclear Fission; gold(d) to Mpondo, 244g
800 Machine Tools; oil(d) to Little Bighorn, 448g; oil(d) to Little Bighorn, 366g

This was the high point for trades, and having Swazi as a station to Little Bighorn had paid off with the best trades made in the game, but unfortunately, the next turn was Little Bighorn’s cycle turn and it never asked for oil again. This was really too bad, since I produced about 6 more oil freights with nowhere to send them except into space ship parts. A few more oil deliveries might have saved 5 or more turns allowing a pre 1000 AD launch.

820 Miniturization; coal(d) to Swazi, 107g; wine(d) to Frankfurt, 117g
840 Computers
860 spice(d) to Hamburg, 182g; coal(d) to Hamburg, 152g; dye(d) to Berlin, 156g
880 Nuclear Power; copper(d) to Little Bighorn, 116g; gold(d) to Munich, 134g;
gold(d) to Mpondo, 244g; oil(d) to Wounded Knee, 115g;
Sioux – trade for Flight, give tech, share maps

Another flurry of trades to make some gold before Flight cuts payments.

900 The Laser
920 Radio; wine(d) to Elephantine, 150g
960 Advanced Flight, wine(d) to Hamburg, 117g; Germans – trade for Sanitation

1 turn advances are now history. It’s too bad to have so many gold and oil freights sitting around without 200+ payment opportunities.

980 spice(d) to Berlin, 118g
1000 Rocketry
1020 coal(d) to Berlin, 128g
1040 Space Flight, copper(d) to Little Bighorn, 92g
1060 Apollo Program, cloth(d) to Little Bighorn, 143g
1080 Plastics, cloth(d) to Little Bighorn, 143g
1120 Superconductor; can not learn Fusion Power in time
1140 Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1, 28 gold left in reserve!

While waiting, Tugela and the Apollo wonder were destroyed and the AI did their usual thing. It was boring, waiting 48 turns for arrival.

1188 arrival on AC, score 83 points.

Not bad, I guess, without wonders and with such lousy trade. Reduced tech costs were the only benefit to be found with this map. I wonder how much improvement could be made without wonders on a more favorable map.

[rjmatsleepers]

Solo - congratulations on a brilliant result. You are of course right about the embassies. I've seen the benefit of MPE in a "normal" EL game. I should have used diplos for the same result. I choose not too, partly because of the shields involved inbuilding diplos and partly because in the early years I traded techs for everything in sight in order to get the AI up to worshipful and thus join an alliance. On reflection, this was a bad decision.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Zenon]

A fine game, Solo! Congratulations! Like you I was in doubt which strategy would be possible in the beginning. I thought that a handful of cities without wonders would need eternally to launch a spaceship and that it would be better to deal with the happiness problems instead. 1188 is much better than I would have expected once it was obvious there was no AI on a different continent.

I was also wrong about the no wonder rule. The biggest obstacle in this game is the lack of trading opportunities, not the lack of wonders. In normal ELGs we use some 40 or 50 caravans to build wonders. To use theses ressources differently is a good compensation.

My own game is beyond automobile now and picking up some speed. Well, not in terms of playing the game. To manage my 30 cities is quite laborious. But it is also going much better than expected. I will have a look at your sav when I have finished my own game.

Zenon

[solo]

Thanks RJM and Zenon.

I agree that it was lack of good trade that held me back. I tried to set up my cities for as many road and rail bonuses as possible to compensate for being on 1 continent, but there is no substitute for some good overseas trade with the AI.

I would like to try another game on a map more favorable for trade, just to see what can be done without wonders. Good trade allows quicker advances and more rushing of city improvements and additional caravans. Once trade gets going well everything speeds up.