Caravan revenue - a bug if not clicking city

[SlowThinker]

I noticed a bug of one-off caravan payment:

It happened in GOTM 41, if you load the attachment (it is a FW save, but the bug works also in MGE with this save) and deliver a Xinjan caravan to Kashgar, you'll see the revenue is cut down to 240g. But if you open the Xinjan window or change the taxes ratio before the delivery then you get a full revenue of 320g.

Fortunately a player usually replaces workers in the source city and so the bug doesn't come about.

[debeest]

ST, you cite two actions that can preclude the bug: open the window of the delivering city, OR change the tax rates. From those two conditions, can we determine how the bug works so that we can better anticipate it under other circumstances?

[rjmatsleepers]

I can confirm that the difference in delivery bonus is duplicated on my machine, so it is nothing to do with ST's set up.

The same thing appears to happen to the salt caravan as well. If the dye caravan is delivered first - without doing anything to increase the bonus - the "bug" remains for the salt caravan. If the salt caravan is delivered first, the demand changes, but the "bug" continues (at 120 gold and 160 gold).

Incidentally, it does not seem to be related to the actual tax level. If the tax window is re-opened and the sliders returned to their original level, the bonus remains at the higher level.

The bug is also there if the salt delivery is made to Nishapur or karakorum.

I can't suggest a cause though.

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

There are probably particular events that trigger an update of a city's trade value, such as the pre-delivery actions mentioned above. I'm guessing they forgot to include this update when making a delivery, calculating the payments from the old value.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo
There are probably particular events that trigger an update of a city's trade value, such as the pre-delivery actions mentioned above. I'm guessing they forgot to include this update when making a delivery, calculating the payments from the old value.

This is a plausable explanaition, which raises the question what has changed that "they forgot to include"? The higher bonus is 3/2 times the lower one. Superhighways have a 3/2 multiplier but I don't think that can be the cause. Is there something else with a 3/2 multiplier or are we looking at multiple changes that result in the 3/2 effect?

Or are you just talking about a change in the number of trade arrows in the originating city? Xinjian has a small amount of excess food, so presumably it grew by one citizen on the last turn. Would that be enough? With one less citizen and one worker on a forest it could have a base trade of 10 arrows; With 5 citizens and trade maximised it has 15 arrows. However, although this gives a 3/2 ratio, I don't see how this would carry through into the trade bonus calculation.

It is possible that MPE was completed on the last turn. Can this trigger anything that would have an impact on the delivery bonus?

Also, I believe that the game is being played below deity level - I'm not sure which - can this cause a difference?

RJM at Sleeper's

[SlowThinker]

debeest, I hope you appreciate my support in your try to save this forum...

RJM at Sleeper's questions: Xinjan didn't grow last turn, MPE was completed long time ago, it is a King game.

But I found the problem - 240 is a revenue if Xinjan doesn't celebrate. Xinjan didn't celebrate last turn.

Anyway the revenue is not usual: there is 15+5=20 arrows, distance 30: base revenue should be 20*(30+10)/24=33, but it is 40 (40*8=320). Maybe a MapSizeFactor in action?

[germanos]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
Anyway the revenue is not usual: there is 15+5=20 arrows, distance 30: base revenue should be 20*(30+10)/24=33, but it is 40 (40*8=320). Maybe a MapSizeFactor in action?

No, just bad math . MapSizeFactor is a myth.

arrows = 16+5, distance =36, ==>base trade of 40,25

[SlowThinker]

germanos, you are right.

concerning the 15 / 16 arrows from Xinjan:
I supposed the arrows are counted as
a) total arrows - total corruption - trade routes
but it looks it is rather
b} arrows from worked squares - corruption from these arrows

(??)

Unfortunately the city window shows corruption from total arrows only...

[debeest]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
debeest, I hope you appreciate my support in your try to save this forum...

Yep. You'll notice I jumped right in.

But isn't it just like you to figure out the answer yourself....

[debeest]

Originally posted by germanos
MapSizeFactor is a myth.

Really? Or is MapSizeFactor just not applicable on this particular map? Those Who Know seem quite convinced that MapSizeFactor exists, and my own experience seems to corroborate that.

[germanos]

Originally posted by debeest


Really? Or is MapSizeFactor just not applicable on this particular map? Those Who Know seem quite convinced that MapSizeFactor exists, and my own experience seems to corroborate that.

Then please show me a map where it exists.
I have yet to see one.


@ SlowThinker:

arrows in question are from trade generated by the citizens, trade-routes don't count.
To get the right figure, remove citizens from trade-producing squares equal to the amount the trade-routes generate, but allow for corruption.

(in this case: max trade: 21+3corruption=24. Trade routes are 6 --> to get the arrows needed for the calculation, get 24-6=18 arrows in the trade-'box' (remove 2 sea-sqaures, put one back on grassland).
Now the box will show 16+2 corruption=18 . 16 is now the figure needed for revenue calculation.
Sometimes it is impossible though to get the right amount in the box, and you will have to make an estimate. Usually this one arrow doesn't make a very big difference, unless the distance is extremely short)

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by debeest
Those Who Know seem quite convinced that MapSizeFactor exists, and my own experience seems to corroborate that.

Switch to samson's 'Calculating Caravan and Freight Delivery Payments' thread. I express there my inability to get the MapSizeFactor work (using samsons' hints).

Originally posted by germanos
arrows in question are from trade generated by the citizens, trade-routes don't count.

Both a) and b) options count with it, the question was how the total is calculated. But I suppose you have more examples where b) (and your nice trick) worked (?)

[germanos]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
Both a) and b) options count with it, the question was how the total is calculated. But I suppose you have more examples where b) (and your nice trick) worked (?)

In principle, the method is b)

In other words, arrows are calculated as if there are NO trade-routes present, while corruption is taken into account.

If trade-routes exist, they will generate corruption as well. In the example from your save, the routes generate 6 arrows, but one is lost because of the corruption.
The key to determine what part of the shown corruption is a result of the routes present, is to do as I explained.