Pelloponesian War Events thread!

[Varwnos]

Hi, this is a thread regarding the scen i am working on about the pelloponesian war. I decided (Gagliaudo's idea originally, and a very good one) that research wont be an issue in this scen, so i am moving on to the events part. Due to my less than perfect (to put it in a manner which wont make me run out of the room- kafka always was my favourite author...) grasp of Thucidides history, i am asking the people here in Apolyton to propose which events they would like to see in the scen
I hope that you will want to take part in this
atm the only events that are in are:
Sphakteria battle (and optional capture of Pylos)
invasion of Kythera (and optional capture of Skandea)

I am sure that Gagliaudo could just come with a list all by himself (he is really a great help in this scen) but everyone is invited to suggest their own favourite events fromthe conflict

I hope that Stefan will find time to contribute as well, i want to mention again that the map is his, and so are the city graphics

The Mantineia-Sparta war is one that i am particularly interested in, but you can propose any event you like
looking forward to your replies,
Kyriakos

[Gagliaudo]

@varwnos:
I was passing by here...
Let's start: Athenian attack against Melos, and struggle for Megara/Nisaia, Plataia (but you alreasy told this ), and all the coastal city of Pelop, and of the gulf of Korinthos...
Hey, for a fighting scenario like this, 'zero-ing' the researc can really make game-engine easier: events will provide which it needs...
Later, with news (I hope)

[Varwnos]

I think that i will use research in the same manner it was used in the scen about yugoslavia, in other words through research the player will eventually be able to build the strong units, which are given in the beggining of the conflict in limited numbers in each nation.
Can you provide info about the athenian-melian conflict? What if in the scen independant Melos ends up controlling vast parts of the pelloponesos? then the melian debate wont be right! (just kidding)

[fairline]

I guess some of the following could be used:

Athens aggression versus Corinth in 459BC (naval battle at Sybota and later land battle at Potidea in 430BC)

Battle of Delium 424BC

Mantinea (obviously!) in 418BC

Siege of Syracuse in 416BC

Siege of Plataea

The oligarchic coup in Athens in 411(?)BC

The rise of Sparta as a naval power in the 410s

[fairline]

Originally posted by varwnos
I think that i will use research in the same manner it was used in the scen about yugoslavia, in other words through research the player will eventually be able to build the strong units, which are given in the beggining of the conflict in limited numbers in each nation.

It's worth thinking about the actual reforms to Greek troops that took place in the late 5th century. In general, as I'm sure you know, hoplites became progressively more lightly equiped and pelasts became progressively heavier. The Lakedaimonians, in particular, did away with cuirasses, greaves and the closed Corinthian helmet in the interest of mobility and vision. The only armour they retained was the argive shield and the pylos 'pot' helmet. Most other states followed suit. The Athenians through Iphicrates' (or was he later?) reforms basically used heavy-peltasts as hoplites, with a longer spear than conventional troops but protected only by peltai shields, quilted cuirasses and open helmets such as the Attic and thracian helmets.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it isn't simply a case of making the researched units better both offensively and defensively. You may want to improve attack and movement stats, while reducing defensive stats. Just some thoughts....

[Varwnos]

Wow, no, Failrine, infact i didnt know any of that! Hm, perhaps i could ask politely that you provide your units for my scenario? I have your greeks version2 units, but are the ones you are talking about all there?
I am planning to have a few basic units, some stronger ones, and rather a lot of "hero" units...

[Varwnos]

Atm i am working on the terrains... you could propose events in europa universalis style event proposing (in other words youc an be very specific)

[Gagliaudo]

@Fairline:
Really interesting, your briefs about greek military reform; I don't know when there was the Spartan one, I can say first important Iphikrates victory was in 390 near Korinthos (IIRC at Lechaion: his peltastai destroyed an entire spartan 'mora' = battalion) .

Pelops' events:
Maybe Sybotai battle in 433/2 (but around 459 there was the so-called 'first Peloponnesian war", not the important and most famous one, but an sort of i'ntroduction' to it - with quite differences). for the battles you mentioned.
I put: Athenai's pestilence (430-429); Brasidas' campaign around Amphipolis (424-422) - prosecution of first struggles around Potidaia; the various battle in Ionia and Ellesponton (Abydos & Syme 411, Kyzikos & Kynossema 410, Ephesos various 409/8, Notion 407/6, Arginussai 406, Aigospotamos/-oi 405).

Sorry, problems with my pc, hope solve them quickly, to be more present to the thread development.
By you all!

[fairline]

Originally posted by varwnos
Wow, no, Failrine, infact i didnt know any of that! Hm, perhaps i could ask politely that you provide your units for my scenario? I have your greeks version2 units, but are the ones you are talking about all there?
I am planning to have a few basic units, some stronger ones, and rather a lot of "hero" units...

Help yourself - anything posted in the graphics threads is regarded as fair game unless otherwise stated. Everything is there bar the heavy peltast, which from what Gagliaudo has said dated from the 390's.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Gagliaudo
@Fairline:
Really interesting, your briefs about greek military reform; I don't know when there was the Spartan one, I can say first important Iphikrates victory was in 390 near Korinthos (IIRC at Lechaion: his peltastai destroyed an entire spartan 'mora' = battalion) .

I wasn't sure exactly when Iphikrates brought about his reforms - thanks for that. As for the Spartans, Sekunda and Connolly give 425-420 as the dates that the Cuirass was discarded; Sekunda states it regained popularity in the 360's.

[Varwnos]

@Fairline: The only thing is that there arent that many of them (greek units) and they are a bit big in relation to the other greek units, so i will either have to use just units by you, or just units by alex and hobbes. I still haven't decided!

Another thing i am having second thoughts about is whether it would be more interesting to have Eleia or Mantineia as a playable side. Atm they are part of the same side (Eleia).

@Gagliaudo: What do you suggest for the northern cities in the map? (aetolian, lebadian etc) Naupactos could be athenian sympoliteia, but i am trying to prevent wars in that part of the map, those cities should mostly be a block.

I am finished with the terrains (i think) so i am moving on to the events now. I dont think that i have enough event space to mention the entire history, so Potidaia will have to be left out, or to just be a footnote. (it isnt in the map anyway). I added the important village of Solygeia, which will be part of an event as well

ps: it isnt easy to simulate the armies of the period, since they weren't serving for ever, the spartans that went on campaign against attica for example returned home to cultivate their farms. i am not sure if it would be very interesting to have it be impossible for any spartans to conquer any athenian post-village though (this can be done, by placing a spartan inside it and then just disbanding him).
What do you think, is it ok if i name one side Eleia-Mantineia? They were allied in the battle of Mantineia although no Eleian forces were there. Btw what was happening in the spartan-elean border at the time of the battle of Mantineia?

Megara will probably be either independant, or Korinthian.

Also: which towns did Mantineia control? the arcadian alliance of the time is a bit vague

[Varwnos]

I made some flags for the scen, although most of them arent historical, they give a more greek flavour

omega: independents
lamda: Lakedaimon
delta: Delian league (athenaike sympoliteia)
alpha: argos
kappa: korinthos
sigma: pelloponesiake Symmahia
alpha: athena
epsilon: Eleia (with Mantineia)

[Gagliaudo]

@varwnos:
You could give METHYDRION to Mantineia; don't remember what about Eleian/Spartan front, but there were combats not far from Olympia, Pheia, Kyllene (these one was important Peloponnesian league port). Nice flags, I'd give Athenai its own OWL (like in Fairline excellent units' shields )... Pheraps you could give Korinthians or Delian a trident (Poseidon rules! ) because of their sea-link so important... But it's just an idea of mine, no philologic study on it... A bit of freedom in civ choices, no?
Really I'm quite stupid: I forgot Potidaia/Ionia aren't in your map :stupid: : sorry, My perspective was directed to the entire war theatre...

I've some problems with pc, so I'll be quite absent for a while, apart from just shots.
Bye all!

[Varwnos]

I changed aetolia a bit, and gave Astakos to the athenaike sympoliteia, probably this isnt correct, but they had some towns in the north of that region. Also aded the island city of Oinoiadai (not too sure about the second oi, too bored to look now though) Naupaktos will also be with them. Should Delphoi be part of any union?

[Gagliaudo]

@varwnos:
Hi! Astakos was catched by Athenian very very early (it was leaded by a tyrant, ally with Korinthos), so choose what you prefer .
Don't sure, maybe Oiniadai. Delphoi? Well, it was Phocean-Locrean, and they were allied with Sparta (like just quite all Sterea Ellas), and Spartans counted on his treasure (Thukydides report exactly this); Naupaktos rightly athenian, populated with Messenians
Bye all!