Mystery?

[Varwnos]

Who knows what this means:

(Gagliaudo dont dissapoint me)

[Varwnos]

Two more clues

a) the island in the first pic is called Sphacteria

b) this second pic The ship belongs to some northern power, that showed contempt for its old metropolis

[Varwnos]

You can always propose terrain etc

[curtsibling]

Looking good!

Whats with the registration message?

[Varwnos]

It is due to the screen capture trial version program that i am using... unfortunately i dont have anymore any program that can save jpg files in so few colours without messing things up!

Curt, any idea what the scen is about? Only about one of the most famous wars in history! (getting any warmer?)

Unfortunately this means that i am abandoning my original plan (greek colonies).

The city graphics are by Stefan Hartel, and its his map (with some alterations by me) so i will have to get his permission first, but i think he won't mind

[Varwnos]

Korinthos

It isnt a port, it wasn't, its port is a city by itself as with other cities

you can create movable expensive non military units in Korinthos and dismish them in the port, so as to build a fleet faster

[Varwnos]

The naval part of the one sympoliteia

probable nations:

-x
-y
-x's sympoliteia
-y's sympoliteia
-Eleia (Elis)
-Argos
-Korinthos (Corinth)

-Independants (under barbarian control)

by now i am sure that you have guessed who x and y are

[Varwnos]

And the map (originally from Sons of Hercules, but i am heavily modifying it where needed, added the cyclades, lower aetolia and other regions)
Ok, Stefan agreed that i may use his map & graphics, so i can now announce the obvious:
this is my scen about the Pelloponesian war

i am thinking of placing some sicelian cities as well, but due to the map (which otherwise is perfect, and counterbalances this only defect) i cannot:

-display the rebellion of Chios, in the end of the war
-display the asia minor coast campgaign (Lampsakos mostly)
-display the affair that started the war, Kerkyra's (Corkyrae) attempt to vassalise Epidamnos, and the Korinthian intervention, infact Kerkyra isnt in the map at all, sadly!
-the western islands are just a part of the Cyclades, but at least the important island cities of Melos and Delos are there
-the Aetolian city of Anactorion (Anactorium) isnt in the map (important in the beginning phases of the war)
-no macedonia or thrace!

to balance that however:
-the map has huge areas in both Pelloponesos and Attica, and the Theban conflict with Plataea and other cities can be displayed as well
-A lot of space makes it easily possible to seperate methropolis from their port cities (Stefan used that in his sons of Hercules scenario himself)
-The number of colony cities that can be placed is ideal so that the interdependence of the Metropolis and colonies can be shown in a civ2 game
-More detail in the allies of the Spartans, Elis (Eleia) and Korinthos are sides by themselves, and Argos (later involved in conflict against other pelloponesian cities, during the war) is a nation in the game as well.
-Messenia isnt a nation, it is part of the Athenian sympoliteia, but this is just as well, since it would have been unrealistic to try to conquer Sparta playing as Messenia

Other ideas:

-i will try to depict some of the main battles, with open endings
-many units will be special "General" units
-possibly the hoplites will either be settler units (as in Sons of Hercules) or will only be given by events, which do you think is better?
-settlers will be military units (to prevent large scale terraforming, infact i dont think that the computer player will do any)
-Thebes (Thebai-Thevai) will be part of the Pelloponesian league, but this isnt entirely bad news, since the pelloponesian league atm (due to the fact that Elis and surrounding area is a nation by itself) mostly consists of arcadian cities, and bits and pieces from here and there, so Thebes will be its main city, thus making it a playable side too.
-I dont know what to do with other main pelloponesian cities, i am thinking of making Mantineia 'barbaric' for example, your views on this?

note: the map in the pic isnt complete in any way, nor are the cities controlled by the states they will be controlled by when that is done)
hope to get some feedback soon, bye for now

[Gagliaudo]

çvarwnos:
sorry for my reèly so late: problems with those crazy telephonic company (they cut me off, but I always paid!!! They cut you in a second, but to re-active the line... how many days??? )

Immediatly - just seen your first map - I thought: S-W coast, Sphakteria (The 'woody' island), 425/4 bC...
PELOPONNESOS !!!
(I'm working about this project, too No matter )
Well, I'll read carefully all the rest of your posts, and I'll give a serious and the most complete reply, ok?
BTW, in the 2th jpg, the ship belongs to Kerkyra, obviously!
Ehy, my Pelop's project is quite different, I'm really happy to see you working on these events, really, keep on...
But I sincerly preferred your past idea...
S'you soon (even PM - did you recibe?)

[Gagliaudo]

gramathic error...

apologize:
I mean "did you receive?"
Perhaps it was too long (what a strange, I used to be short in my posts...

[Gagliaudo]

@varwnos:
I hope it wasn't my fault if you left your original project...
I was really interested to see the end of your work about Greek colonies (my posts were only personal and obviously humble ideas, but the scenario was exclusively yours, and it sounded good).
You're yet in time to back to Colonies!!! Think about it!
I wont spam your threads/polls any more, I promise!!!
You'll can put Tebe in Meszenia, Azinai in Tracya, Sparti in Croeta, Chorynth in Sikkylia and so on... I won't say a word (perhaps...: est modus in rebus...)
Peloponnesian War is a great theme, however (It's a long time I'm working about ), kai duo scenarios kallion esti eis... mhhh not sure this ancient greek...
I'm always ready to give an hand (I read and I recall Thukydides very well), I'm sure your project will help me, too.
That's one of the good things of Civ forums: to help themselves each other!

It needs talk about the first and one -just till now- scenario about Peloponnesian War, by AlexMor.
Alex the Magnificent is a great scenario designer, that's a fact, but I did never like too much his old (1997?) Peloponnesian scenario, mostly because of his awful (IMHO) choice and composition (and name-giving, of course! ) of protagonist civs and cities, (even if i think he didn't want restrain the action at the strictly Pelop War only, but who knows?) but he had good ideas in that (and others) scenario. However, I want repeat it, Alex needn't to demonstrate anything, this must be clear! He's a great, sincerly. His scenarios (the others... ) and graphics speak for him.
I often give a look to his webpage to see if there's any new, any update...
That's all.

However I'm thinking about a Pelop'Scenario since 1999(when I 'discovered' civ2), and mostly after I saw Alex's scenario! . Will I make it, one day???
That's the real MISTERY !

[Varwnos]

Gagliaudo:
You had nothing to do with my decision to not go on with my greek colonies scenario, it just was too difficult to complete, and the limited space was very annoying since i had to place most of the cities next to each other and i hate that

i am always happy to talk with you

the other scenario would have been worse in the end, and "TO MH XEIPON BE^TISTON" (just imagine that ^=Lamda! Maybe they also meant that being the centaur Cheiron was the worse thing ever? just kidding )

my plan is to have a large scale war, with limited powerful units and vast space, so strategy will be crucial, and i hope that this will be an open ending scenario, in other words Sparte doesnt absolutely have to win

i cannot stress enough the importance of Stefan Hartel in this though:
- i am using his cities
-any new terrain is mostly edited by his graphics
-although many more cities are added, and other changed names, i am building this using his already placed cities in the Sons of Hercules scenario

so certainly i am very happy that he allowed this, he isnt at all egoistic about his work, and that is very nice!

As for you Gagliaudo i am sure that your Pelloponesiako scenario will be special, and i am looking forward to playing it when its complete

perhaps you can propose what the highlings of the scen should be

atm i am thinking mostly of the Argean entrance to the war (they went to war against Mantineia? i will have to re-read that) and also the Thebes-Plataiai war, and probably the entrance to Attica will be event driven, if the front collapses. Its all very general at the moment, but one of the units is called "ksylina teiche" (wooden walls) i am sure you know what kind of unit that is

here is a pic of the Spartan mainland

(oh, i almost forgot, can you come up with a list of cities that Sparta controlled before the start of the war? i mean Sparta, not her allies! And also Eleia-Elis!)

talk to you soon

[Varwnos]

Also i wonder if you can help with where the cities of
-Ampheia
-Eira (messenian Eira)
were. They are somewhere in Messenia, but i can't find where. Ampheia was the first messenian city the spartans ever captured (it is possible though that they destroyed it utterly anyway) and Eira was another one they besieged in the first messenian war.

Here is a pic of the south-eastern Messenia. I know of the city Kolonides as well, but it is probable that i will not place it (it was south of Korone, in the mainland).

Is there any limit in the number of cities?

[Gagliaudo]

pelops'

Hi Vawrnos,

well, I'm glad to not be a desperate cause of your recent change

Nice collocation of Messenian cities, except Messene (founded in IV century bC with the help of the same boring Thebans, allied with Messenians uprised against Sparta...). Maybe you can rename it ITHOME, and put it a bit NW, in the mounatin zone of Messenia (mostly a rich plan, otherwise Sparta would let it in peace, Lakonia had just enogh mountains and hills... ) ... Not really a city, more a fort ("phrourion") or a mountain ("oros") , but Messene will go OK (I don't want this scenario end like the old one... )
About Eira: a bit N respect Messene/Ithome, I'll be more precise later.
BTW: did you see the map I posted in your old "AmericaOfAncientGreece" thread ?

XEIPON BE^TISTON... my greek get down... 'Worse hand' (work?)

Atm don't recall exactly the 'wooden wall'... perhaps Delion (ca 424 bC ??? That could be a good screenshot, if it's what I've in mind... ).
Now I only remember "machron teichon" (or machra teiche)...
And ALexMor knew it, too

BTW, IIRC, civ2 has a limit of 255 cities...
About cities number: years ago, when I was starting thinking a Pelops'scenario by me, I was quite sure that : lot of cities = lot of fun, giga map = giga fun... Later, I re-think about that...
"Est modus in rebus" (It needs to have moderation in things)
KALANIKTA

[Varwnos]

Wasn't a Messene earlier than that? What about that sicelian city that was renamed to Messene/Messena? (possible that it just got its name from the country's name, not some town's name?)

to mh xeiron veltiston: that which isnt worse, is better (or: anything is better than the worse)

ksylina teiche: wooden walls, that was the name of the ships, the athenians had gotten a reply from some oracle that their salvation lies in beulding wooden walls. instead of building real wooden walls they built a fleet, dont remember when that happened though, could be the persian wars!

Ithome already is in the scen.. but i will think of removing Messene (Kolonides is to the south of it, maybe it can replace it) if you will come up with a map showing where Eira is

btw there is an Eira in Argolis (exists even today) but i am not sure if it was important at the time, and there are 6 cities in a very small space in Argolis so i can choose from them

cities:
Mideia
Tiryns (Tirynthos)
Eira
some others (too bored to open civ2 and look!)

talk to you later, kalenykta (nyktwr ta polla, as ussual)

oh, i almost forgot!

here is a pic of some of the islands i made