why put your SSC "down the list"?

[debeest]

Lots of people have said that it's preferable to put your SSC in a city "down the list" so that some other cities will be processed after your SSC gives you a tech.

I don't understand how this is helpful, except occasionally in certain specific circumstances -- and in other circumstances it would be equally harmful. Of course, if you're generating more science than you need for the tech, then it's good to save the extra for after the tech. But, as a general rule, I see no consistent advantage or disadvantage to having your SSC lower on the list. In fact, if you're generating lots of science from caravans, then you might want to have no beakers at the beginning of your turn, so as to leave lots of room to deliver caravans without wasting their science bonuses.

Can someone please explain in detail why they think it is consistently a good idea to build your SSC "down the list?" Thanks.

[Sparrowhawk]

I am the wrong person to answer this, but I will give it a shot anyway....

I think the reason was for later in the game when the SSC will generate a tech on it's own (enough beakers from the SSC for a tech). Then, using your example, if you have delivered Caravans the turn before (enough to complete or over complete your next tech), you would complete a tech with the bottom city in your city list which generates beakers (1st tech), then you would continue to accumulate science up to your SSC, and when going through your SSC you would potentially complete another tech (2nd tech). The cities above the SSC would then be used towards a potential third tech that same turn, and even if they were not enough to complete that 3rd tech, they could be used to complete the 1/3 of the tech that you cannot get from one caravan delivery. On the other hand if your cities above the SSC generate enough Science to complete the 3rd tech, you could potentially start on the 4th tech before you have delivered a single caravan on that turn. Obviously, the further down the list your SSC is, the more you would benefit from the science of the cities above your SSC.

Regardless of where your science is at after going through all your cities at the start of a turn, obviously caravans can be used to complete the tech in progress, bringing you back to the same point as the previous turn.

/me who invites others to correct any inaccuracies

[Bloody Monk]

Good answer, Sparrowhawk.

Solo would give a definitive answer that I would rely on. In his absence, I would say the key is to not waste the SSC beakers, which could easily happen if the SSC is the last city processed. With carryover + (Lib, Uni, RL) science in the succeeding cities, another discovery is attainable.

Late in the game with most AI cities also captured, especially their Capitals/first cities, this generally happens by itself. Then, after many deliveries, the first city processed gives an advance; another comes along the way when there are many science improvements; a third comes with the SSC; and, sometimes, a fourth comes by the end, if there are enough "improved" cities processed after the SSC.

The only downside I can think of, debeest, is early on where corruption (SSC not in Capital) could be an issue, due to distance. Having the SSC in the neighborhood of the Capital should be assumed.

What other downside did you have in mind, debeest??

Good question, debeest.

Monk

[rah]

Sounds about right to me, but it's hard to have your science city too far down the list or you will never get the early wonders you need in it.

[debeest]

Oh my goodness. I've only occasionally wandered into the two-techs-per-turn zone, and probably never into the one-tech-just-from-the-SSC zone. Maybe that's because I'm not all that good a player, and maybe it's because, ever since I learned to conquer, I don't get very far past tactics on the techtree.

So, my question arises out of my own typical inept play context: Let's assume I've delivered enough vans to fill the beaker box, so I'm starting over after the first city is processed. Maybe my SSC can provide most of a tech, or maybe only a third or a half or two thirds of a tech. My other cities, whether they come before or after my SSC, can provide another fraction of a tech, or maybe more than a tech. In this case, the SSC will not consistently be the city that fills the beaker box. (This is even truer if I haven't filled the box by caravan, which is often the case with me, still being a trade primitive.) Therefore, on any given turn, my SSC is just as likely to waste extra beakers if processed early as if processed later.

That's the downside I'm referring to, Monk. If my SSC is not producing a tech on its own, then wherever it is on the city list, it seems to have an equal random chance of wasting beakers. First on the list isn't better than lower on the list, and it's not worse, either. Sometimes I'd gain by processing cities after it; other times I'd lose by wasting SSC science because it was processed "too early." Corruption is the only constant, and for that, high on the list is better.

So, given that I'm rarely cranking out multiple techs per turn, would you agree that it doesn't really matter for me where on the list my SSC is?

For this reason, I use SlowThinker's beaker counter and adjust my science frequently in order not to waste SSC beakers.

Also, I suspect that everyone usually begins their SSC fairly early, and fairly close to the capital. So, at most, they have only a few cities to process after the SSC, and the whole question is nearly moot. Am I right?

[rah]

Originally posted by debeest

Also, I suspect that everyone usually begins their SSC fairly early, and fairly close to the capital. So, at most, they have only a few cities to process after the SSC, and the whole question is nearly moot. Am I right?

Yes, if you build it too far down the list, it will never get col. But as stated earlier. Other civs caps and maybe a few more cities will still be above it and can produce decent science when captured. So you can get 18 or so cities ahead of it, even if it's only your 3rd or 4th city.

So not quite moot.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by rah


Yes, if you build it too far down the list, it will never get col. But as stated earlier. Other civs caps and maybe a few more cities will still be above it and can produce decent science when captured. So you can get 18 or so cities ahead of it, even if it's only your 3rd or 4th city.

So not quite moot.

Not quite moot but ...

... to be an issue, you must either have a choice about which city to use as an SSC or when to establish the city that is going to be the SSC. In my experience, most of the time there are so few sites with 4 trade specials and lots of water or rivers, that you don't have any serious choice about which city is your SSC. Similarly, if you have found a good site, it is not often that you can afford to delay founding the city simply to change it's position on the list. And since (as Rah pointed out) your SSC needs to have the Colossus, these decisions must be made quite early in the game.

So as far as I can see, from time to time you may have a decision to make that will affect the position of the SSC on the build list. The most obvious example is if you are going to build your first 2 cities on the same turn, in which case you can make sure that your capital is not your potential SSC site. However, mostly you will build it where and when you have to and accept the results

Of course you will have more choice if you are not aiming for an early landing with as effective an SSC as possible, but if so I'm not sure why you would worry about the position of the SSC on the build list.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by rah


Yes, if you build it too far down the list, it will never get col. But as stated earlier. Other civs caps and maybe a few more cities will still be above it and can produce decent science when captured. So you can get 18 or so cities ahead of it, even if it's only your 3rd or 4th city.

So not quite moot.

Yep. Depending on the map, the SSC will be the 3rd to 5th city I build AFTER getting the Capital down and/or hut popping, then exploring. But it will almost always be fairly close to the Capital to keep corruption loss down early on.

Unless, otherwise stated I assume this board deals with SP questions, not MP. That said, I haven't worried about missing any WOW's in years. Usually, I will build MPE first anyway, for maps and research shortcuts. By then I have found the SSC site and will be ready to get the science wonders.

debeest, I think that even in a conquest game, one can only benifit by trade based science. The more you trade, the stronger you become. Some cities will not lend themselves to trade and, therefore, barracks, then units are called for.

Does conquest by the time of Tactics make the SSC list position moot?? Maybe, but I think having a few cities processed after the SSC will be benificial. Starting the turn with beakers in the box might even be more important if you don't trade much.

None of this should be construed to mean this way is better, or even that you should try it out. The more important thing is playing however you best enjoy the game.

Monk (getting too sleepy to moot any more)