Trade Routes With Barb Cities

[rah]

Since the AI does it all the time, It doesn't surprise me that the barbs can surprise attack in rare circumstances. I can remember it happening once or twice (at the most) in the past.

Tough break on your story, but it was still against the odds. Your defense would have been around 13.5. Even an archer surprising isn't usually going to win that one very often. Barb cities don't build improvements so it's unlikely it was a vet.

I usually keep mulitple units, (usually units bribed from said city) and a fortress as soon as construction is discovered.

[Ljube]

I explained everything in my story, but let me repeat.

I couldn't start bribing those units cause I didn't have writing at the time.

Multiple units wouldn't have made any difference cause I didn't have any good military technology and possessed only one archer in my entire army which I used.

The formulae for sneak attack you calculated based on tries warrior vs warrior may not have been representing the entire picture, since warriors have defence of 1 and attack of 1, so it's difficult to determine if the attacker's rating is increased or defender's rating decreased and by which amount exactly.

When barb archer sneak attacked my vet archer fortified on a mountain, the barb archer barely had a scratch while mine was annihilated. Previously, while the attack was not sneak attack, my archer didn't receive a single injury.

[rah]

And my point doesn't change, it was still bad luck to lose that battle. Even with the barb 50% attack bonus and a 100% surprise bonus, the barb archer would have been attacking at 9 to your 13.5. Unlucky.

[Ljube]

Damn it Rah! Your post count is devilish (9966)!
Keep posting at this pace and you'll be deity tomorrow, on Wednesday at the latest!

Well, let me help you with this. Let me aid you on your quest to reach the heavens.


What if your calculations and conclusions resulting from tests warrior vs warrior which seemed to point to a bonus in attack are actually erroneous because of the attack and defence factor of warriors (1) that could distort the analysis? What if it's not an increase in attack rating but a decrease of defence?

I suggest we test this with better units such as archers in various situations and see for ourselves. I would particularly like to see a test of sneak attacks of an archer on another archer fortified on a mountain. A vet one.

You see, 9 against 13.5 winning with only slight damage to the attacker is more than unlucky by my standards.

[ramses II.]

Before I had writing, the caravan was accompanied by a NONE-chariot - and I waited with the delivery until the barb city had completed another archer. I destroyed it, then I delivered the goods.
Later I bribed some archers - cheap NONE-units

[duke o' york]

You could build a road on a mountain to get the barbs to kill themselves against your defender, but you can;t build the road over the mountain all the time. To my understanding, the road or railroad bonus is calculated by the road covering all thos squares chosen by the AI: that is, the route that a GoTo unit from one city to the other would take. Just because you have a road stretching from one city to the other does not mean that you will get the bonus, because if you deviate from the GoTo route (say to build the road over some plains and grassland because it is quicker than through the swamps) you will not get the bonus.

[rah]

ljcvetko, knock yourself out and test. I was satisfied with ours and experience has supported the results. Freak attack do happen. I had a barb archer destroy a city on a mountain that was defended by a foritifed vet phalanx before. (without surprise) It happens, but it is very unlikely.

And yes, DOY, am quite familiar with otimal path for road bonuses.

[Elephant]

Guess once the Barbs got a city they became a "real civ" and could get the Suprise Attack bonus...

[ramses II.]

As I learned in this forum, early trade routes are important for an OCC game. Sooner or later the city will be taken by an AI civ, or an AI Civ will build cities on my continent/island. So the "bad" trade routes can be replaced by better ones. But that maybe happen thousands of years later.
So trade routes with a barb city are better than nothing

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by ramses II.
As I learned in this forum, early trade routes are important for an OCC game. Sooner or later the city will be taken by an AI civ, or an AI Civ will build cities on my continent/island. So the "bad" trade routes can be replaced by better ones. But that maybe happen thousands of years later.
So trade routes with a barb city are better than nothing

"bad"?? I think you may have misunderstood.

With an optimal road and later RR connection to your SSC/OCC, your three routes to the Barb city will very likely hold until you lose Colossus. And that means no other delivery point has given a better trade route, such is the power and effectiveness of the road/RR effect.

So, definitely better than nothing.

Monk

[ramses II.]

"Bad Trade Routes"-explanation:
Barb cities will not build market places, banks or superhighways.

[duke o' york]

Do barbs pillage improvements (well, specifically roads) built by you around their own cities?

[Elephant]

I hope you try that BEFORE you give them the city - they will not permit you to road or irrigate afterwards...

[duke o' york]

Why not? If you can get a decent defender and a couple of engineers - stack o' doom style. One load of engineers builds the one-turn fortress, the other engineers build the road or irrigation, and the unit just defends them from inevitable barb attack. You might need a spy in the mix to get around the ZOC, but I don't see why this couldn't be tested.

[rah]

I've used the instant fortress to improve terrain around a barb or AI city before, for roads or because of overlapping city radius. If I feel the need to pillage it when done, it sometimes costs me the unit. No biggie.