Another deity game

[Marcel I]

By the way
Does the size of the map make any difference in how early you can launch your spaceship ?

[Elephant]

There are supposed to be "compensating factors" in the trade calculations that give you less gold and beakers for longer deliveries on a large map. In general, though, having watched several EL games compared on Large versus Medium maps, the terrain around your start has the larger influence that a bigger map. The larger map does allow for larger delivery bonuses, despite the formula difference, but you have to go a long way pretty fast: longer ship chains or airlift.

[debeest]

Originally posted by Marcel I
It's still hard to see how anyone could get up colonies and profitable trade routes before AD.

I fully agree. I've seen so much commentary urging people to get three trade routes in their capital/SSC as early as possible, but neither the delivery bonus nor the ongoing trade bonus is significant until the cities are producing a decent amount of trade. Even with multipliers for demand, foreign civ, foreign continent, and pre-navigation, if the number you're multiplying is negligible, the product is still negligible. I use all early camels for wonder-building.

[Bloody Monk]

While it is true that getting the early WOWs is important, a demanded offshore (different continent number) delivery for a size 5 celebrating SSC can easily bring in more than 200-250g + an equal amount of beakers. You can use the gold to buy the Wonder and the extra science is invaluable.

Get Marco Polo, maps, and build boats to make the delivery. Look at some of Solo's games. This works.

Monk

[debeest]

To get 200g in the early game, with 3x for demand, times 2x for foreign civ, times 2x for foreign continent, times 2x(?) for early period, you've still got to have enough trade and distance so that [combined city trade * (d+10)] equals about 400. That can happen even with just a size-5 city, but by the time you can pull that off, aren't you probably going to want to have built several Wonders? I'm talking about the period before you can make many deliveries like that.

[Zenon]

debeest,

I like to look at this differently. The point is not about making single deliveries, but to create a trade based economy. In the beginning 2 triremes and 4 caravans will be enough to start. That´s 280 shields which could also buy a small wonder earlier. But I don´t think any wonder (except MPE which is needed to start trade effectively) is needed so much a few turns earlier. These first deliveries to the AI may not bring more than 120 to 200g each (my own cities being at size 3), but this allready pays for the next triremes and caravans and so on. The next deliveries will be higher and often hit the science cap and bring a continuous surplus. The science created by the deliveries also allows to reduce the science rate in favour of income. At the time I complete my science wonders I usually have accumulated delivery bonuses of 3000 to 4500g and most of my cities have at least one trade route.
So if you ask me what is more urgent, starting the trade economy or the wonder building I will always favour trade.

Zenon

[debeest]

Don't want to hijack the thread, but --

Early on, it's hard to deliver caravans that are worth their cost. The caravan costs 50 shields to build, or on the order of 125g to rushbuild, and if you turn it into a Wonder its value is about 200g. So that's the opportunity cost if you deliver the caravan instead of converting it.

To exceed (100g + 100 sci) early in the game, you need a lot of multipliers all working together. Even if you have all of the best likely multipliers, as described above, you still need [combined city trade * (d+10)] exceeding 200 to get a 100g delivery bonus. (And that's assuming the early-period multiplier is 2; I haven't got the info here, and I don't remember whether it's 1.5 or 2.)

When you can deliver caravans for more than (100g + 100 sci), it's worth it. I'm just saying that most deliveries will be worth less, and in that case, the caravan is worth more as Wonder-building materials.

People also emphasize the importance of the trade routes themselves, as opposed to the delivery bonuses. At a certain point they're tremendously valuable, but early on, trade bonuses are usually negligible. No point delivering them real early. That's all I'm saying.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by debeest
Don't want to hijack the thread, but --

Early on, it's hard to deliver caravans that are worth their cost. The caravan costs 50 shields to build, or on the order of 125g to rushbuild, and if you turn it into a Wonder its value is about 200g. So that's the opportunity cost if you deliver the caravan instead of converting it.

snip>>>

People also emphasize the importance of the trade routes themselves, as opposed to the delivery bonuses. At a certain point they're tremendously valuable, but early on, trade bonuses are usually negligible. No point delivering them real early. That's all I'm saying.

If by delivery you mean to one of your cities, or if by real early you mean pre2000bc, then, maybe I would agree.

But that's not what I specified when I said an offshore AI. I suggested taking a look at some of Solo's games. Here is a quote from him that bears on this...

The trireme made contact with the Japanese in 2300 and the Aztecs in 2250 while exploring the channel separating their continents. All AI but the purple civ had been found! In 2100, San Francisco was founded by another settler. By 1900, the 6 caravans for ST were ready and it was built. This is the earliest I have been able to do this so far in any game, and by the time contact was made with the Indians on their own island, located a bit west of the Japanese and Aztecs, Washington was already size 6 and its beads caravan was delivered to Delhi for an excellent payoff of close to 400 gold. This seemed like a fortune at this stage in the game, and provided much of the cash needed to pay for the aqueduct, harbor and sewer system, in order to keep the SSC celebration going continuously until size 21 was reached in 1000 BC.

He said it was a straight run from size 6 to 21, that's 750yrs. A delivery between 1900b and 1750b for 400g. I'd say that's pretty early and a decent ROI.

With early Republic or joining settlers to a Monarchy SSC +ST, getting size 5 in the SSC is not hard.

This is from a very valuable thread Solo started on Early Landing Games before the Comparrisons and the Guide. Look back to late 2002, early 2003 for some very good reading. Check this one out:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=1524298#post1524298

This is the thread the quote is from. But there are others in that time period. From that beginning, which placed a great emphasis on early Republic, to the many and varied stategies that evolved out of those endeavors, including the robust strategy of Zenon, trade has always been the centerpiece in all the approaches.

I hope this discussion is helpful. Early Landing Games became my favorite. I really enjoyed the puzzle aspect and their problem solving nature. Be careful, you can get hooked on these games.

Monk

[-Jrabbit]

Marcel -- I'm certainly not one of the experts around here, but to me your biggest problem is number of cities.

If you're like I was, you have limited your approach to what you see the AI doing. DON'T!! Keep building and expanding constantly! Even without an ICS approach, you should be able to create <20/40/more> cities. Make sure you get an early happy wonder, then celebrate in a representative gov't for explosive growth.

This will give you a superior infrastructure of workers. Remember, a new settler costs you one population point = one worker. When that settler becomes a city, you get two workers back. (ICS takes this notion to the extreme, but a perfectionist approach can still use it to great advantage.)

Oh, and if you keep losing camels on long trips, you're not using the High Seas. Sending them overland without miltary escort is an exercise in frustration. (Even if they make it to their destination, demand will often change during a long trek.)

[rah]

Yes, but thanks to the trade guide, changing demands is more predictable. Thanks to it's participants.

[OzzyKP]

Screw spaceship, just build lots of howies and railroad through your enemies. They are toast.

[duke o' york]

Yup - Ozzy has a good point here. Once you realise that engineers can (and should) be used in enemy territory as well as your own then conquest becomes a lot easier. It is a good idea to give the target civ Railroad as soon as possible so that they can connect their cities and make the job of conquest a stroll. If you have enough offensive units of decent strength then you can roll along the AI's railroad and crush the defenders with ease. Howies, with 2 movement and their ability to ignore city walls, are best at this, and by the time they come into the game the AI should be all railroaded up and ready for a pounding. Always take a few engineers along with you, and some spies, so that you can fill in any gaps in the AI rail network, and so you can use the spies' ability to ignore ZOC to get around enemy units and only attack the AI cities. Sure, it's fun to wipe out the AI units, and occasionally necessary if they are in the way of the railroad to the next city, but you would be best going around them where possible, and killing them by capturing their home cities.

[rah]

Yes, I can think of many games where I initially planned on a spaceship but then the AI would show their soft underbelly and it would be just too tempting. THe best is choosing the spot you will defend the turn prior to draw out all of their offensive units before you go in and wipe them clean.

[OzzyKP]

I'm usually behind in tech when I play deity. They all declare war on me and trade tech amongst themselves. But once I get set loose a pack of howies the game is over in a few turns.

[rah]

Ah, but just build the GL, and research what they aren't and it's easy to stay ahead. I used to do that, but now that we're more knowledgeable about trade, it's easy to out trade the AI and stay considerably ahead of them.

All you have to do is keep them in a state of war, and all their resources will be wasted building walls, barracks and armies. They will mimic your low science slider and their science will stagnate. It's easy to stay ahead.