The Graphics Workshop

[fairline]

Excellent idea Catfish I'll give this a try. Funnily enough I've moved away from a 'subtle' approach as regards shading towards a higher contrast look, as you can see from the Russian tanks I've been posting, which have fairly large steps between shades. However, it won't hurt to give this a go, and I'm still not convinced the 'high-contrast' look is all that good. In fact, other than grey or fawn units, there just aren't enough shades per hue in the civ palette and I have to move from one colour to another to get the range I'm looking for (for example the olive greens to dark fawn browns for these Russian tanks); this 256 range of shades will definitely help in that respect.

In fact, the more I think about it, the better your idea gets. I'll get back to you when I've tried this out.

BTW, I hope your not still awake to be reading this today

[Catfish]

Originally posted by fairline
However, it won't hurt to give this a go, and I'm still not convinced the 'high-contrast' look is all that good.

If I've got any criticism about your latest ranges of German and Russian tanks, it's the tracks. I find the contrast a bit hard on the eyes – a little grainy. The rest looks fine to me.

Originally posted by fairline
In fact, the more I think about it, the better your idea gets. I'll get back to you when I've tried this out.

Of course, this method is optimised more for 24-bit graphic work rather than the 192-colour Civ2 palette. Some of your MGE fans may bemoan a switch.

Originally posted by fairline
BTW, I hope your not still awake to be reading this today

I went to bed between those last two posts. Still tired, though.

[GoPostal]

That's the one. I find it so much easier to skip the help files and exhaustively try evrything.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Catfish

If I've got any criticism about your latest ranges of German and Russian tanks, it's the tracks. I find the contrast a bit hard on the eyes – a little grainy. The rest looks fine to me.

I was a little unsure of them myself, particularly the white winterised versions - I definitely overdid the contrast setting after greyscaling. Should I get rid of the tracks altogether or just redo with darker less-contrasting colours?

Of course, this method is optimised more for 24-bit graphic work rather than the 192-colour Civ2 palette. Some of your MGE fans may bemoan a switch.

Yes, I was intending to redo a couple of ToT tanks with this palette. Obviously on reducing to 256-colours I would still have the same problem of not enough shades per hue.

I went to bed between those last two posts. Still tired, though.

The internet is a terrible thing

[Puma]

woah! I'm posting just so I can keep the thread for reference. Great Job!

[curtsibling]

By far the most useful thread!

[Catfish]

Originally posted by fairline
Yes, I was intending to redo a couple of ToT tanks with this palette. Obviously on reducing to 256-colours I would still have the same problem of not enough shades per hue.

Calling it a 256-colour palette is actually a little flattering when you consider that you can only use 192 of them!

Originally posted by fairline
Funnily enough I've moved away from a 'subtle' approach as regards shading towards a higher contrast look, as you can see from the Russian tanks I've been posting, which have fairly large steps between shades. However, it won't hurt to give this a go, and I'm still not convinced the 'high-contrast' look is all that good.

So as I don't find myself talking out of my arse, I took another look at your new German and Russian tank series to freshen my memory. On second opinion, I even find some of the standard Russian versions (body, as well as tracks) a touch high in contrast, but this is just personal taste. However, I'm certain some of the German vehicles suffer more in this respect. Having said that, from a technical standpoint they're clearly superior to anything anyone's produced to date.

I'll try to explain myself with examples, so I've attached a few tanks below for reference. In my view, a good example of high-contrast graininess is the StuG III – the hull, wheels and the tracks. I think perhaps the contrast between the wheels and the hull should be reduced. For comparison I've got your modified version of Nemo's Tiger II and I think this one just about gets it right. The Nemo tracks mightn't be perfect, but they don't detract; IMHO the contrast and shading on the turret, hull and details are spot on (for 8-bit).

For the new Russian tanks: you mentioned the winter versions, but as I said, I believe that the standard ones are also a touch high in contrast. The tracks are grainy on all versions. IMHO, the best example of one of your high detail tanks is your older T-90. You've added all sorts of bits and pieces to the hull and turret, but you've nailed the contrast perfectly (it's possibly my favourite of all your tanks). It almost looks a little washed out when juxtaposed to the JS-3, but that'd be my standard.

I guess I'd better put my money where my mouth is and offer some alternatives. The numbers below correspond to various versions of the attached JS-3 and T-34.

1. The original JS-3.
2. Manually changed the style of the tracks to something similar to that of the Tiger II shown, although I'm sure that can be improved. Replaced the black hull section around the wheels (whatever that's called) with a shade of grey. Tweaked the shadow shape and changed the colour – I'm not keen on brown shadows.
3. Selected the hull and turret only. Increased colour depth to 24-bit. Used Brightness/Contrast with the settings, Brightness 10, Contrast -10. This produced a slightly washed out look, so I needed to increase the colour saturation again. You could use Hue/Saturation/Lightness…, but I just passed the Saturation Up/Down retouch brush over the selection a couple of times with whatever settings I just happened to have at the time. These were: Size 40, Hardness 100, Step 1, Density 100, Opacity 24. I then reloaded the Civ2 palette.
4. The same as 3, except the settings were Brightness 10, Contrast -20.
5. The original winter T-34.
6. The tracks and shadow have been modified in the same manner as for the JS-3.
7. Hull, turret and wheels modified using Contrast -10.
8. Contrast -20.
9. Contrast -30.

I didn't spend too much time experimenting with my settings, but really I just wanted to help illustrate whether or not a lower contrast on the body and tracks is an improvement, and if so what kind of level is optimal. Opinion?

I imagine something like the StuG III would require a bit of manual work, since lowering the contrast doesn't actually add any shading steps (which is possibly what it requires) – in this respect, the JS-3 and T-34 are superior. Possibly reducing the contrast between the wheels and the hull might be an improvement (make the hull something like #232323, instead of black).

Originally posted by fairline
I was a little unsure of them myself, particularly the white winterised versions - I definitely overdid the contrast setting after greyscaling. Should I get rid of the tracks altogether or just redo with darker less-contrasting colours?

I'd keep them and redo with less contrasting colours (darker for the winterised versions, not necessarily so for the others). Hopefully, I've been of some help.

[fairline]

Excellent feedback! Thanks, Catfish, that's much more illuminating than the standard response to my gfx.

I go along with most of what your saying here, but IMHO the final winter T-34 is too grey. I'll experiment with greyscaling the original. I agree about the tracks - I'll redo.

[fairline]

I was trying to go for darker shades of green than the T-80, BTW. It dissappears against some terain graphics and is just too light for Russian tank colour. You've got the tracks spot on for the final IS-3, I think. I'll have a think and retry the Russian and German tanks.

[Boco]

It dissappears against some terain graphics

I'm glad you're keeping the context in mind. It's easy to overlook. We're going to need a terrain workshop soon.

[Catfish]

Originally posted by fairline
I go along with most of what your saying here, but IMHO the final winter T-34 is too grey. I'll experiment with greyscaling the original. I agree about the tracks - I'll redo.

I agree about the last winterised T-34 (I didn't increase brightness - it was a contrast comparison). My picks are probably numbers 3 and 7. Because I wasn't entirely convinced by my own arguments, figuring that my evaluation of the hulls may have been distracted by the tracks, yesterday I re-tracked the whole Russian series in the same way (see below). It sure makes a difference.

Originally posted by fairline
I was trying to go for darker shades of green than the T-80, BTW. It dissappears against some terain graphics and is just too light for Russian tank colour.

Sure. I lightened it to get a better comparison with the T-90. Just drop the Brightness 10 factor. Of course this all depends on the terrain, too.

Originally posted by Boco
We're going to need a terrain workshop soon.

Fire away, then.

[fairline]

Excellent, thanks for that It definitely makes a difference but I think on reflection I like a bit more definition on the tracks than you have here. I'll post a tweak tonight.

[Catfish]

Those re-tracks were originally for my own benefit - I didn't intend to post them. Then I figured that they might be useful.

I looked at the new winter KV-1 and I still prefer lower contrast tracks, but then again I've been accused in the past of making my units too blurry, so what do I know?

[curtsibling]

By Odin!

I have just inspected the recloured WW2 armour from Catfish's site, and they are blimmin unreal!

I have never seen such nice colours!
Especially the winter German types!

I am drinking red bull to fortify myself from the shock of such uber-graphics!

Don't ever stop, Mr Catfish!
Or you either, Mr fairline!

[fairline]

They are just amazing. I think we should have a link to Catfish's site here:

http://users.tpg.com.au/jpwbeest/index.html