Otro hilo de la Conquista

[Gigante Verde]

Si!... Al Fin!!! Ya tengo C3C!!!

Y para aquellos que habran conocido de mi "dilema" con el Civ3 Standard pues decirles que ya esta resuelto el problema, despues de casi un mes de esforzadas busquedas y de diarios lamentos, ya tengo el Civ3 operativo (desde hace 2 dias por cierto )...

He de agradecer a todos aquellos spamers... perdon... foreros que mostraron su preocupacion y apoyo a mi persona, gracias por la ayuda y oraciones ofrecidas

Para estrenar mi nuevecito C3C, estoy participando en el Gran X Progressive, en la Division Regente

Y sobre Mis PBEMs, debo dar encarecidas gracias a Chingassatt por su ayuda mientras yo no estuve, realmente gracias Chingassatt Ahora... entregame mis PBEMs! (Tranquilo, es broma... podemos ir haciendo la transferencia sin problemas , Otra vez agradecido contigo ).

[DrGerry]

¡Qué lastima! Ahora ya estamos todos jugando con el Civ IV



Acordate que el progressive se juega con la versión 1.22f (la última) No sea cosa que tengas que jugarlo de nuevo

[Bragelonne]

Bien bien bien. ¡Ya era hora!

[Chingasatt]

Re: Otro hilo de la Conquista

Originally posted by Gigante Verde
Si!... Al Fin!!! Ya tengo C3C!!!

Y para aquellos que habran conocido de mi "dilema" con el Civ3 Standard pues decirles que ya esta resuelto el problema, despues de casi un mes de esforzadas busquedas y de diarios lamentos, ya tengo el Civ3 operativo (desde hace 2 dias por cierto )...

He de agradecer a todos aquellos spamers... perdon... foreros que mostraron su preocupacion y apoyo a mi persona, gracias por la ayuda y oraciones ofrecidas

Para estrenar mi nuevecito C3C, estoy participando en el Gran X Progressive, en la Division Regente

Y sobre Mis PBEMs, debo dar encarecidas gracias a Chingassatt por su ayuda mientras yo no estuve, realmente gracias Chingassatt Ahora... entregame mis PBEMs! (Tranquilo, es broma... podemos ir haciendo la transferencia sin problemas , Otra vez agradecido contigo ).

Como dicen en mi pueblo:
Lo caido, caido!!!!
Ya en serio, puedes tomarlos ya. Dejame pedirle a Al-kintha y Frucus que te los envien, pq mi correo gmail ya lo espamee!!!

[jasev]

Originally posted by Gerar Dean
Acordate que el progressive se juega con la versión 1.22f (la última) No sea cosa que tengas que jugarlo de nuevo

Sí, y también recuerda que el parche 1.22f que hay que bajarse es el multilenguaje. El otro da problemas.

[Niessuh]

Loado sea ala en su misma mismidad!

Bueno y...que tal el conquest? ¿Primeras impresiones?

[quiquejavi]

Te ha costado,... eh???
Verás como merece la pena.

[DrGerry]

Originally posted by Niessuh
Loado sea ala en su misma mismidad!

Bueno y...que tal el conquest? ¿Primeras impresiones?

Seguro que dice que es más warmonguer que el PtW

[Drakan]

C3C ? Pero esa versión ya está anticuada, no ? Ya se juega al C4 en España,



The changes from Civ3/PTW to Conquests, by SirPleb


In this note I'll try to cover the changes from Civ3/PTW to Conquests which affect strategy in a GOTM game. I won't describe the many other differences except to briefly mention:

1) New and changed Civilizations. When you first encounter a Civ you might want to check them in the Civilopedia. Some previous Civs have changed traits - if that matters to you then check all Civs you meet, not just new ones.

2) New Civilization traits - agricultural and seafaring. Understanding these won't matter much until we play a Civ which has them except for one thing: seafaring Civs get an extra movement point on water and may be able to cross a gap which a non-seafaring AI won't cross.

3) New units. There are a few new units available to everyone. You can check the Civilopedia to learn about these as they become available to build.

4) New bonus resources such as "tropical fruit" (bananas.) You can look up each of these in the Civilopedia when you encounter them.

5) Small stuff. There are lots of minor changes such as tweaking of unit stats and costs, defensive free shots for some units, etc. I consider most of these to be relatively minor and won't detail them.

Changes you've already seen in GOTM

These changes have been made in past GOTMs in anticipation of Conquests. If you've played a recent GOTM you'll already have a feel for these. The changes in this category which I think have significant impact on strategy are the following.

Trading of contacts and trading of maps both become possible in the Middle Ages instead of Ancient Times. Contacts moved from Writing to Printing Press. Maps moved from Map Making to Navigation.

Unit support cost in Republic changed from 1gpt per unit with no free ones to 2gpt per unit with 1/3/4 free ones per town/city/metropolis.

Trading for workers: typically the AIs want about 120g now vs. 30g in unmodified Civ3/PTW.

Lethal bombardment for bombers. This can be used to great (perhaps overpowering) advantage in a Modern Times war!

Corruption, RCP, Forbidden Palace

RCP is gone. Place your cites according to the geography and don't worry about equidistant rings.

The Forbidden Palace does not create a second center for rank corruption. In Conquests the Forbidden Palace only increases OCN (the number of your cities which won't have extreme corruption) and serves as a second center for distance corruption.

In Conquests I recommend building your Forbidden Palace fairly near your Palace (in a city no more than say 1/3 corrupt) to build it quickly. Build it in a city which is in the general direction from your Palace where you expect to expand the most, to gain a bit from its effect on distance corruption. I suggest beginning the build relatively early - on a standard map it would be good to start the FP build when you have about 10 cities, planning to complete it when you have around 20 to 30. The boost to your empire's production will be nice but not huge. So I don't suggest going crazy to build it quickly, e.g. stuffing workers into the city building it. You might want to start it sooner or later than I've suggested depending on your other priorities in the game.

I don't think it is worthwhile to use a leader to rush the Forbidden Palace. Since it no longer makes sense to build the FP in a totally corrupt region you might as well use real production to build it and use leaders for other things.

Moving the Palace and/or FP is now seldom worthwhile. Moving the Palace will often hurt your empire because all cities get their corruption rank from the Palace city - you can't use a Forbidden Palace to maintain productivity in the original Palace region. Palace jumps are probably not worth considering in Conquests.

The maximum corruption for any city is now 90% instead of 95%. This makes large outlying cities a bit more useful than before.

The Courthouse and Police Station now reduce the maximum corruption of a city by 10% each. E.g. a city with a Courthouse will not be more than 80% corrupt regardless of where it is in your empire.

Great Leaders

There are now two kinds of Great Leaders.

Military Great Leaders (MGLs) are the original type. They're produced as before by winning fights with elite units, and with the same odds as before. They've changed in one important regard - they can no longer be used to rush great wonders. They can still be used to rush small wonders, regular improvements, and to create armies. At first this may sound like they've become a lot less useful. But armies have become much more powerful. So much so that MGLs may be more important than ever. I've written a separate section about armies further down.

Scientific Great Leaders (SGLs) are the new type of leader. They are produced by being the first Civ to research a tech. Each time you are the first Civ in the world to learn a tech you have a 3% chance of getting an SGL. (A 5% chance if you are playing as a scientific Civ.) An SGL can be used either to start an "age of science" (increases research for 20 turns) or to rush a great wonder (same as could be done with an MGL before Conquests.)

There's an option to turn off SGLs and I hope the Conquests GOTM will use it. I think SGLs are poorly implemented and we're better off without them. For one thing they're too large a luck factor. For example, 1 out of 33 players will get an SGL on their first discovery of a previously unknown tech. Say Writing in the current game since we start with Alphabet. Those lucky few players can then rush a wonder such as Pyramids! And this is a largely uncontrollable luck factor. We can't "farm" for SGLs as we can for MGLs. With a bit of bad luck it is possible to be the first to learn almost every tech in the game and still not get a single SGL. If SGLs are turned on in the game and you get one, I recommend using it to rush a great wonder. There's a bug in the implementation of the "age of science". And even if that worked properly I think that it would almost always be better to rush a wonder.

A couple of things to watch out for with SGLs:
o You might not realize it when you get one. I've only had one (because in the Conquests games I've played I was usually behind in tech) and I didn't realize I had it for a while. I guess there was a popup message about it, but one which disappeared by itself without needing a click from me. I eventually noticed it in my F3 display.
o You can have more than one unused SGL at a time. However I think that while you have an SGL you will not be able to produce an MGL in battle.

Armies

If you're planning much military action at all you'll want armies - they're very powerful now!

Armies in Conquests:
o Get a bonus to their attack and defense strength. The attack bonus is the total of the attack strengths of all units in the army, divided by 6. The defense bonus is the total of the defense strengths of all units in the army, divided by 6. If you've built the Military Academy small wonder the bonuses increase - the totals are divided by 4 instead of by 6.
o Get an extra movement point. E.g. if the slowest unit in an army has 2 movement points then the army has 3 movement points.
o Have the blitz ability. I.e. they can attack multiple times in one turn, one attack per remaining movement point.
o Can pillage without using a movement point.
o Have the zone of control ability. I.e. they sometimes take a shot at enemy units as the enemy moves past them.
o Have an improved scouting range, seeing an extra tile in each direction.
o Heal slowly even while in enemy territory. They heal quickly in home territory and heal completely in one turn in cities with barracks.

The AI will generally not attack an army unless it is in a city. An exception is a wounded army - below a certain level the AI may attack it. You can generally figure that an army with more than 8 hit points will be able to move around with impunity.

The AI won't build armies.

All of the above sure adds up! Armies are well worth using MGLs to produce. I feel they're over-powered now which is a shame - I wish the AI would attack them and would produce armies of its own to even things out a bit.

One final note about armies: After you build the Military Academy small wonder, you can cash-rush armies! If you are involved in a lot of warfare armies are well worth their rush cost.

Research

The maximum number of turns to research a tech has increased from 40 to 50. So learning a tech the slow way has become a bit less appealing.

The first Civ to learn Philosophy gets a free tech! When you learn Philosophy, after selecting the next tech to research, you'll get that tech immediately if you were first to Philosophy. This makes going for Philosophy a no-brainer I'd say

If you've been playing Civ3, i.e. not PTW, there's a significant change for scientific Civs. Instead of predictably getting the same tech almost every time upon entering a new era, scientific Civs get one of the starting techs for the era at random.

Motorized Transportation can now be reached without researching the bottom path of the Industrial Age tree. This change can be used to get to tanks a bit sooner, which may make them a bit more useful.

There are some other changes to the tech tree (a couple of new optional techs, Radio is gone, spaceship path is a bit different) but none of these greatly affects strategy IMO.

(message too long for one post, continued below)

Governments

When you revolt to change your government, the period of anarchy will be one turn longer than it was before Conquests. Even religious Civs are affected by this - they now get a two turn anarchy.

There are two new government types, Feudalism and Fascism. I won't describe them because I don't think either is useful - for any particular situation one of the previous governments seems better to me.

Communism is stronger than it used to be. You can now run a large Communist empire successfully. In fact I think it is now overpowered if you have a large empire, say of 80 cities or more. If you decide to use Communism be sure to build the Forbidden Palace and also the new Secret Police HQ. (Available after learning Espionage, and can only be built while in Communism.) Each of those small wonders dramatically increases the number of cities you can have in Communism before corruption will increase much.

Great Wonders

The new Statue Of Zeus wonder produces a free Ancient Cavalry (3-2-2) unit every five turns. This wonder can be built after Mathematics is discovered and you have ivory connected to your trade network. Note that a supply of ivory is required even after building this wonder for it to produce Ancient Cavalry. Also note that the units produced by this wonder have 4 hit points as regulars instead of the usual 3. If you build a Barracks in the same town they'll be produced as veterans with 5 hit points. If/when promoted to elite they'll have 6 HPs.

The new Knights Templar wonder produces a free Crusader (5-3-1) unit every five turns. This wonder can be built after Chivalry is discovered. I haven't built this one and don't know if it produces units with a 1HP bonus similar to the Statue Of Zeus.

The new Temple Of Artemis wonder puts a free Temple in each of your cities on the same continent. It requires Polytheism to build. This wonder might be useful in a 100K culture game, I'm not sure. There's one big catch with it - it becomes obsolete with Education, and while you have it and it isn't obsolete you can't build "real" temples in your cities. So you'd have to be ready to rush temples in many cities on the turn of learning Education. And you wouldn't get a 1000 year doubling on those temples as soon as if you'd built them the usual way earlier on.

Shakespeare's has improved - it now allows the city which builds it to grow larger than size 12 without a hospital.

The Great Wall has some real value now. It puts walls in all of your towns.

Now that the Great Wall has been fixed, the new wonder Mausoleum of Mausollos will probably get the "most useless wonder" award in Conquests. This wonder requires Philosophy to build and produces 3 happy faces in the city which builds it.

Barbarians

The Conquests barbarians seem to be the result of a lot of inbreeding. They may hurt you by dumb luck but you do not need to assume the worst from them. In most cases they'll present a lower threat than ever before, milling about aimlessly until you can get around to killing them.

Curraghs

With the changes which move map and contact trading to the Middle Ages, exploration becomes more important and stays important for longer in the game.

The Curragh is a boat which is available once Alphabet is learned. It cannot carry land units, costs 15 shields, and can move 2 tiles per turn. This unit can be a very useful early explorer. On an archipelago map (which seems unlikely this month as the Hittites) it can be invaluable.

Resources and Luxuries

Beware - these are scarcer in Conquests! It is not unusual to find yourself starting without iron, without horses, or without both in your immediate region when playing Conquests.

This may be affected dramatically by the non-random nature of GOTM maps of course

New Terrain Types

Marshes are a new kind of terrain. Marshes can be cleared to become grassland, similar to clearing jungle. An important difference is that cities cannot be founded on marshes. The marshes must be cleared first.

Volcanos are also new. I suggest staying away from them. They're not very useful - we can't even build roads on them. But they're dangerous. Every once in a while they erupt, destroying things nearby. I know that they can destroy a city on an adjacent tile. I'm not sure but think they can destroy or damage a city two tiles away.

Specialists

Each taxman now produces 2gpt instead of 1gpt. Late in a game when you can have a lot of specialists this can add up to a lot of income.

Each scientist now produces 3bpt (beakers/turn) instead of 1bpt. This means that it now makes a significant difference whether you set a specialist to a taxman or a scientist. Before Conquests it didn't matter much - taxmen were as good as scientists since the income they produced enabled setting the science slider higher to get more science. Now it matters. As long as you are doing any research you're better off to use scientists to get 3bpt than to use taxmen for 2gpt and to then convert gold to beakers via the slider.

After you learn Nationalism you can use a new kind of specialist called a police officer. Each police officer reduces corruption slightly in the city. I'm not sure how large the effect is. Generally it seems to me to be a small effect and as a result I've seldom used police officers.

After you learn Replaceable Parts you can use a new kind of specialist called a civil engineer. Each engineer produces 2spt (shields/turn) if the city is working on a city improvement or a wonder. Engineers do not contribute anything while the city is building units. And you can't beat the system by switching a build, e.g. starting on a colosseum with some engineers helping, then switching to build a tank. At the time you switch to a unit the shields contributed by engineers disappear from current production. Engineers are useful for hurrying production of a wonder to get it in time, to hurry production of other builds in some cases, and to produce marketplaces, temples, harbors, etc. in totally corrupt cities.

Worker actions

Workers clear forests more quickly. Just four turns for a non-industrious worker.

Workers can now build:
o Outposts. Requires Masonry. Eliminates fog of war in the region. Building this consumes a worker. Seems like a waste of a worker to me, I haven't used these.
o Barricades. Requires Construction and a Fortress already built in the same place. Increases defense and slows movement. 16 turns to build. Useful in some defensive situations.
o Radar Towers. Requires Advanced Flight. Provide a combat bonus to units fighting within two tiles. Building this consumes a worker. These seem very useful to me in modern wars.
o Airfields. Requires Flight. Provides a non-city base for aircraft. Building this consumes a worker. I haven't built one of these but expect there are times they'll be useful.

[pablo_arg26]

Por fin viejo!!! pero apurate a jugar al C3C pq ya sale el Civ IV.
Lo mejor los crateres de la artillería y la capacidad de "eliminar" unidades con los aviones!

[Gigante Verde]

Gracias, gracias

Sobre eso de que ya es anticuado... yo insisto enque civ4 sale el año que viene e igualito habra que esperar a la expansion C4 PTW o Conquest para que valga la pena jugarla

Drakan, gracias por el post explicando la diferencia entre PTW y Conquest... ahora... podrias traducirlo (es que esta muy largo para leermelo en ingles , de repente otro dia me lo leo con calma ).

El conquest lo tengo instalado con el parche 1.22 (de hecho tenia el parche y el no me pidas antes que el mismo conquest ).

[pablo_arg26]

Si vas a ser rápido.... se esta abrindo un PBEM... buscalo y anotate!

[Gigante Verde]

Lo siento Aun no poseo capacidad para viajar a velocidad luz... digo... para jugar un save por dia

[Drakan]

A ver si nos ponemos las pilas con el engwlij:


Cambios PTW-C3C:

1) Nuevas civilizaciones.
2) Las características de algunas de las civilizaciones de PTW y civ vanilla han cambiado, consultar civilopedia.
3) Nuevas características de civilizaciones: agrícola (la mejor en C3C) y navegantes (atraviesan una casilla adicional de agua, etc...)
4) Nuevas unidades. Consulta civilopedia.
5) Nuevos recursos bonus tipo bananas
6) La IA ya no crea ejércitos en el juego épico como en PTW. Podrás ver ejércitos en C3C sólo en los escenarios.
7) Los ejércitos y sus propiedades son radicalmente distintos en C3C. Ver mi artículo sobre los ejércitos en C3C:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122985

8) Ahora hay dos tipos de grandes líderes: el militar (MGL) y el científico (SGL).. Los grandes líderes científicos hacen dos cosas: aceleran grandes maravillas. La segunda función de empezar una edad de oro científica (acelerar la producción de ciencia en los próximos 20 turnos en un 10%) está rota. La probabilidad que te salga un SGL al ser el primero en descubrir una tech es del 3% si eres no científico y del 5% si eres una civilización científica. Puedes tener varios SGL’s.Los MGL’s sirven para dos cosas: crean ejércitos y aceleran pequeñas maravillas. Sólo puedes tener un MGL en cada momento.
9) La IA ya no da tantas ciudades, o no da, en un tratado de paz como ocurría en PTW.
10) La IA ya no da tantas tecnologías en un tratado de paz como en PTW.
11) Los contactos y cambio de mapas se da ahora en la edad media (imprenta) y no en la edad antigua (map making).
12) El soporte de unidades en la república es ahora de 2 gpt frente a 1 gpt de PTW, vamos que te cuesta más ahora un ejército.
13) Ahora la IA quiere 120 g por cada trabajador y no los 30 g de PTW.
14) Ahora las unidades de artillería y aviones bombardeo tienen una capacidad letal (matan al bombardear, frente a PTW, que sólo hería las unidades)
15) RCP ya no existe. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_ring_city.shtml

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=116891

16) El Palacio prohibido ya no crea un segundo anillo de baja corrupción. Baja la corrupción a cero en la ciudad en que se construya. Lo único que hace es aumentar el nivel óptimo de corrupción por ciudades (OCN). Es decir, una vez lo construyas podrás tener más ciudades en tu imperio sin que la corrupción sea muy fuerte.
17) El truco del palacio remoto por distance corruption ya no existe. Incluyo link a un juego del Gran Maestro Civer (SirPleb) que ejecuta a la perfección este gran truco:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=65579

18) Aparecen los especialistas que ayudan muchísimo en ciudades muy corruptas. Ingenieros (nuevo), policías (nuevo), artistas, científicos y recaudador de impuestos. Los científicos ahora producen 3bpt y no 1bpt como en PTW. Los recaudadores de impuestos ahora dan 2 gpt y no 1 gpt como en PTW. Los ingenieros aparecen con replaceable parts. Los ingenieros producen 2 spt pero solo para construir mejoras. Si construyes unidades no producen spt.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=108789

19)
20) Un juzgado y una comisaría de policía hace que ahora una ciudad sea sólo un 10% corrupta como máximo.
21) Ahora el tiempo máximo para estudiar una tech ha subido de 40 a 50 turnos.
22) La primera civ en descubrir filosofía obtiene una tech gratis.
23) Ahora la gran maravilla teatro de shakespeare hace de hospital en la ciudad que lo albergue.
24) Hay nuevas maravillas. Estatua de Zeus produce caballería antigua. Templarios produce templarios. Templo de artemis te da un templo gratis en cada ciudad. La Gran Muralla te da murallas gratis en cada ciudad.Ver civilopedia para los detalles.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_great_wonders.shtml

25) La tech radio se ha suprimido.
26) Ahora el periodo de anarquia para las civis religiosas en cambio de gobierno se ha incrementado de un turno a dos.
27) Los bárbaros ya no son peligrosos. Hay una utilidad que arregla esto.
28) Los recursos estratégicos en C3C escasean mucho en comparación con PTW. No es de extrañar un juego en que tu territorio o el continente entero no tenga petróleo por ejemplo. Tendrás que luchar (o comerciar).
29) Ahora hay pantanos, volcanes.
30) Ahora los trabajadores despejan bosques en 4 turnos, como en PTW las civis industriosas. Ahora los obr4eros producen torres de vigía, barricadas, torres de radar, y aeródromos (con vuelo avanzado).
31) se añaden los niveles de dificultad semidiós y sid para los que crean dominar el juego -animalillos-.

Y si tienes preguntas cobro un gold por cada una. Acepto paypal.

[Kane Mitchells]

Vale... que es el RCP???


PD: Tio.. me pillas en mala racha.. hace mejor una birrita?