Aegean Team Game: Thread #2

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by BigFree


Yes, I can see you did. Another fine double move made by GEO. And especially nice since you were attacking by sea.

He played with 9 hours remaining on the clock. I think it's entirely unreasonable to consider this a double move; he allowed over half the turn timer to elapse (nearly two thirds). Civstats is irrelevant to this discussion; the turn timer runs regardless of civstats, and it's not reasonable to expect someone to wait for the turn timer to nearly expire before playing their turn because you didn't play yours.

In other games we've defined 'no double move in war' as ' no moving within the first 8 hours of a turn in which you were the later player to play your turn the previous turn and played during the last half of the turn timer', or 12 hours in a 36 hour timer (on either end).

[snoopy369]

[q="beta"].... it would appear that you were last to finish your 1140ad turn, and played before Big Free on the 1150d turn. And during those two turns you used a sea invasion to capture a city. By the guidelines most pitboss games are played by, that is unacceptable.

If I am wrong - please let me know where. I will stand corrected . If I am correct, but you still do not see what the problem is, then I will continue the discussion to try and help.
[/q]
Assuming he played with 9 hours on the turn timer, you're wrong, in that it's perfectly acceptable. This is simply one of the costs of doing simultaneous turns.

[BigFree]

Originally posted by snoopy369
[q="beta"].... it would appear that you were last to finish your 1140ad turn, and played before Big Free on the 1150d turn. And during those two turns you used a sea invasion to capture a city. By the guidelines most pitboss games are played by, that is unacceptable.

If I am wrong - please let me know where. I will stand corrected . If I am correct, but you still do not see what the problem is, then I will continue the discussion to try and help.
[/q]
Assuming he played with 9 hours on the turn timer, you're wrong, in that it's perfectly acceptable. This is simply one of the costs of doing simultaneous turns.

Snoopy, here's the problem in a nutshell.

Geo wants to make no effort to make sure things are played fairly.

If CivStats is down, that’s not his fault! If the other players don’t keep on top of when a new turn is up, then it’s their fault. At least that’s his attitude that I gather from his play.

I don’t want to play games like this with players who don’t care enough to make sure things are fair.

Technical glitches happen. People lose internet connectivity through no fault of their own. Real life happens. People get called into work. Care to name a few more?

This is a game played for fun and at leisure. Geo makes it one where he is only concerend about how he's doing in the game and not about how he's going about it.

And, just for the record, his justifications are above are not 100% true. For one, there's no way for him to know what units I had in range of that city to move them into it; especially ones not on the coast. Second, does he know about slaving?

I give up on this guy. It's not worth it to me to play this type of game with this type of person. He's more concerned with justifying his double move that he is with making things "fair."

[Andydog]

Originally posted by snoopy369


He played with 9 hours remaining on the clock. I think it's entirely unreasonable to consider this a double move; he allowed over half the turn timer to elapse (nearly two thirds). Civstats is irrelevant to this discussion; the turn timer runs regardless of civstats, and it's not reasonable to expect someone to wait for the turn timer to nearly expire before playing their turn because you didn't play yours.

Sorry, but I strongly dissagree with this viewpoint. If I'm reading things correctly, GeoModder landed troops and then took a city before BigFree had a chance to react. This is a double move, plain and simple. It is totally unfair on BigFree as I imagine the loss of that city would have huge consequences for his game. I can understand and sympathise with his frustration, especially since it has already happened to him and that GeoModder was made to understand then that it was unnacceptable behaviour.

Just because BigFree hadn't played his turn with 9 hours left on the clock does not justify a double move, in any way shape or form. Double moves, quite simply, strip fairness from a game and can lead to severe detrimental consequences for the person on the receiving end. This inevitably leads to the very sorts of problems we are experiencing now.

Sometimes RL prevents players from playing turns and Beta is absolutely correct in that GeoModder could have sent BigFree a note warning him to make his move before his city was taken. Pitboss games such as this one with players such as us should be played in the spirit of fairness, otherwise the game will implode. I'm enjoying this game and I want to continue it.

I don't know BigFree and have never spoken to him but I don't think he should leave this game. I would prefer that the game be played from when GeoModder landed his troops with BigFree having a chance to react.

We must be fair with each other people, this means we make every effort to avoid double moves. Otherwise the game will implode as I've already said. None of us what that, surely.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Beta
If I am wrong - please let me know where. I will stand corrected . If I am correct, but you still do not see what the problem is, then I will continue the discussion to try and help.

OK?

You seem to assume Bigfree knew my fleet was coming. He could in normal circumstances not know there was a fullscale invasion fleet ready to take a city of his. My ships were outside his line of sight (3 plots outside his cultural borders) on 1140 AD, most of them had been in the area for several turns. The Spanish player could attest to that, 2 of my ships were within his cultural view for the last 3 turns. Also, the French player had dibs on one of my ships for a while, and on two at 1140 AD. So how can he complain he had no time to muster additional defenses when he couldn't see my invasion fleet? Unless one of the above mentioned civs gave him that info of course.

So, tell me, is it a double move to move the last required transport ship in position on 1140 AD, 3 plots outside Egyptian territorial waters, move my fleet in 1150 AD from 3 different positions next to the city and do an amphibious assault with most of the units on board?
Andydog seems to assume I came in on 1140 AD, landed troops, and assaulted on 1150 AD. This is absolutely not the case.

As on playtime. Bigfree and I swapped places (playing first or second) several times. I tried to play my turn first all the time since I'm in a way earlier timezone then he is. The timer would usually lapse while I was asleep. All he had to do during the war was wait until I have played my turn and there's no problem. I will of course play if less then 10 hours are left and the turn lapses during my sleep period.

[Beta]

First of all - thanks for keeping the dicsussion going Geo et al. As Andy has said, we do need to work this out.

Originally posted by GeoModder

You seem to assume Bigfree knew my fleet was coming.

I am not assuming anything - all I am advocating for is the natural move-counter-move mechanism.

He could in normal circumstances not know there was a fullscale invasion fleet ready to take a city of his. My ships were outside his line of sight (3 plots outside his cultural borders) on 1140 AD, most of them had been in the area for several turns. The Spanish player could attest to that, 2 of my ships were within his cultural view for the last 3 turns. Also, the French player had dibs on one of my ships for a while, and on two at 1140 AD. So how can he complain he had no time to muster additional defenses when he couldn't see my invasion fleet? Unless one of the above mentioned civs gave him that info of course.

So, tell me, is it a double move to move the last required transport ship in position on 1140 AD, 3 plots outside Egyptian territorial waters, move my fleet in 1150 AD from 3 different positions next to the city and do an amphibious assault with most of the units on board?

Andydog seems to assume I came in on 1140 AD, landed troops, and assaulted on 1150 AD. This is absolutely not the case.

Geo - thanks - this does help explain things somewhat. I think what you are saying is that the assault itself did not involve two turns - that on 1150ad you moved from outside the Egyptian Line of Sight to a position adjacent to the city, and did an amphibious assault to take it.

So, this helps because if the fleet was not apparent to BigFree, then it is hypothesizing as to whether he could have or would have reacted to counter the move. In other words - there was a double move, but no tactical advantage per se was derived from it.

It is still bothersome, as the double move by itself leads to these kinds of issues.

As on playtime. Bigfree and I swapped places (playing first or second) several times. I tried to play my turn first all the time since I'm in a way earlier timezone then he is. The timer would usually lapse while I was asleep. All he had to do during the war was wait until I have played my turn and there's no problem. I will of course play if less then 10 hours are left and the turn lapses during my sleep period.

Understood. But I am with Andy on this one as well. The two players need to find someway to coordinate their turns. Sorry snoop - can't say I agree with your position on this. I understand it though - as one of several imperfect solutions to the game mechanics issue.

Btw - I also emailed BF about the longbow moves to see what was up there. He was not making incomplete moves. It was likely automoving units that you saw Geo. Here is the way BF described it:

I’m not sure what he is talking about when he comments on the “flashing blue” units. I did have 2 LongBows on automove that were moving to another city(just in case I miss a turn). Maybe that is what he is referring to, I don’t know because I think even if I have units set on automove, they won’t move until two things happen: 1. I play the turn when a new turn comes up and units, like workers, that were automated will move at the end or the beginning of the turn based upon your settings for the game. Either way, I don’t think they would have moved until I logged into the game(though I could be wrong I suppose). 2. The turn ends without me having played my turn at which point all the automatic moves are performed.

Maybe snoop can help with the automove process here. My understanding is that units on automove would move at the end of the 1140ad turn, after Geo had played his first turn, and before he played his second.

The more I think about it - the more I think automoves should NOT be used in pitboss games. To a certain degree - they are a subtle form of double moves - as they happen outside the regular turn cycle. (I think that is the case - hence my call on Snoop's, or someone else's expertise.)

[Beta]

And on another note - and BF, please don't get upset with me - but if the assault did not involve a double move as described above, then nice move Geo. An ally and I used just this tactic very successfully in a recent HOTW war against America (we had no choice, the American Islamic government had declared a Jihad against the world - they had to be dealt with - gotta love diplo gaming.)

Personally I think the ability to assault directly from ships to a shore tile - including cities - should not be allowed in civ, other than with units with an amphibious promotion. Totally unrealistic IMHO. Especially when artillery can attack right from the ships. But since the ability to do it exists in the game - it is valid and effective tactic.

[BigFree]

I refuse to keep refuting! Geo likes to make double moves, plain and simple. I no longer trust him to play in a fair manner. That to me ruins this game. I'm sorry to all the other players, but I'm not going to play with Geo ever again.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Beta
Geo - thanks - this does help explain things somewhat. I think what you are saying is that the assault itself did not involve two turns -

Of course not. That would be cheating.

Originally posted by Beta
that on 1150ad you moved from outside the Egyptian Line of Sight to a position adjacent to the city, and did an amphibious assault to take it.

That's the only way to do it in one turn without the opponent suspecting a thing.

Originally posted by Beta
It is still bothersome, as the double move by itself leads to these kinds of issues.

Again, he needed only play consistently after me. I'm pretty reliable (especially during the work week) on playing times. They usually happen within the same 2 hour-span every day.

Originally posted by Beta Here is the way BF described it:

With "Blue sparkling units" I refered to the fact that new units produced in a city have blue sparks over them when they're not promoted and have free xp points available. I saw this happen a few turns earlier in Thebes when his first longbow was produced there, and didn't see it in the two cities I kept an eye on as possible target on 1150AD. Hence my assumption those units where not fresh from the barracks but were moved into town, thus my "the player had played but didn't end his turn" thought.
Even more, since at least 1 of those longbows was auto-moved into town (I assume the other automove was on a plot inbetween cities I kept an eye on) it hints Bigfree hadn't any plans to move other units in those target cities.

Originally posted by Beta
Maybe snoop can help with the automove process here. My understanding is that units on automove would move at the end of the 1140ad turn, after Geo had played his first turn, and before he played his second.

That's my observation on the automove process too since last month. Before that I thought those would move as first on a new turn. But that didn't happen when I tried to use this feature.

[sabrewolf]

a general question to all with battle experience in pitboss games:
if you have the (to me fair-sounding) rule of early player cannot play in last 8 hours, second player cannot play in first 8 hours, this can be quite a problem due to the irregular turn lengths.

assuming both involved parties only have one possible time slot (typically: after work until bedtime)...

unless all have played, dacole's PC ends the turn every 28.5 hours. this shifts the begin/end "backwards" (always a bit later).
on the other hand, when players finish the turn early (as usual), it shifts time "forwards" (always a bit sooner).

so how do you combine the 8-hour-rule with the personal playing slot constraint?

and what do you do if the "later player" has to play in the 9th or 10th hour or miss his turn?

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Beta
Maybe snoop can help with the automove process here. My understanding is that units on automove would move at the end of the 1140ad turn, after Geo had played his first turn, and before he played his second.

The more I think about it - the more I think automoves should NOT be used in pitboss games. To a certain degree - they are a subtle form of double moves - as they happen outside the regular turn cycle. (I think that is the case - hence my call on Snoop's, or someone else's expertise.)

as far as i know, automoves are only executed at the end of a turn if a player doesn't login at all during that turn.

because in all my games (PTBS, PBEM or SP) my automoves go immediately after i have manually moved units. and afaik, there's no way to delay the moves...

so if my assumptions are correct, regarding the longbow move:
1) either BigFree didn't login at all during the turn (highly doubtful in war time)
2) or GeoModder saw(interpreted) incorrectly
3) or Geo is corrent

this could be proved by a neutral instance...

[Beta]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
a general question to all with battle experience in pitboss games:
if you have the (to me fair-sounding) rule of early player cannot play in last 8 hours, second player cannot play in first 8 hours, this can be quite a problem due to the irregular turn lengths.

assuming both involved parties only have one possible time slot (typically: after work until bedtime)...

unless all have played, dacole's PC ends the turn every 28.5 hours. this shifts the begin/end "backwards" (always a bit later).
on the other hand, when players finish the turn early (as usual), it shifts time "forwards" (always a bit sooner).

so how do you combine the 8-hour-rule with the personal playing slot constraint?

and what do you do if the "later player" has to play in the 9th or 10th hour or miss his turn?

yep - Sabre - this is the quandary. I don't know how we deal with it.

[Beta]

Originally posted by sabrewolf


so if my assumptions are correct, regarding the longbow move:
1) either BigFree didn't login at all during the turn (highly doubtful in war time)
2) or GeoModder saw(interpreted) incorrectly
3) or Geo is corrent

this could be proved by a neutral instance...

I think we are agreed that it was #2, an 'interpretation' issue.

[dacole]

Originally posted by GeoModder


Beta, there was a gap of 22 hours in which nothing was logged while the turn could be played. At least, I could play during this period so I assume anybody else could.
IF those 3 longbows weren't on automove or just finished from production he had opportunity to move them himself. Further more, since the last time he accused me, I noticed a few turns he didn't end his turn while I could clearly see units had been moved around in response to my moves.
In any case, the appearance of 2 of those longbows in cities I kept an eye on as target made my assault more iffy, not less, simply because they were a harder nut to crack then. So I went for a target that was better defended then expected, not less. The odds were a bit better on Bigfree's side. My second attack on a lone axeman was even more in his favour. It sat on a jungle hill and had a woodsman promotion. He couldn't have moved that unit to a better spot even if he wanted to. And I fully expected to lose that attack, that I would need to use a second unit to take the axe out.
As far as my intel goes, he couldn't have brought in more reinforcements in the target cities if he wanted to. The cavalry units I had tabs on were on the other side of his empire chasing my units there.
So in short, I don't think I could have taken a 'tactical advantage'. If anything, if he indeed hadn't moved a single unit yet, chances were he would have moved unit(s) out of the targets I kept an eye on, making my assault easier. Besides, even if he had moved an extra unit in, there's one unit I hadn't used in the city attack.
Now let him answer this question: Could he have moved extra units in the target city? If not, his accusation is a like a leaking windbag.
You talked about keeping in contact. Why should I? In my book he's not to be trusted. He's the one making accusations time after time. You think I want to stay civil with such an annoying person?

I have to say as far as I am concerned that is ridiculous. If it takes that much work to play these games fairly then the fun dissapears. I can keep track of who has played because I am running the game and when but if you are playing the game I do not know how you can. Especially as the game keeps falling apart on my end and civstats can not really be trusted for that reason. If I wait a day to play my turn and if the timer is about to go out then I will play my turn if the other individual hasn't played there turn then the problem is theres.

That said this is DEFINITLY something I will set up agreement on between all parties before hand. I never knew this could be such an amazing hassle.

Anyway game is down for an unrelated reason. Do any of you know anything about a trojan called Adclicker? My system keeps trying to remove it but it doesn't seem to be able to as I am still getting strange popups at random times from IE.

Using McAFEE I have never had problems with this stuff before until I started hosting these games. Computer rebotted itself recently and I can't tell if it was because of an update or the virus. Going to be talking to McAfee soon about it. If it takes to long to figure out I'll bring the game back but I want to get this figured out first.

To repeat. From where I sit I as a player I'm not going to keep track of when other people have played. As long as I play at the same time everyday or at about the same time and especially if the timer is about to run out and I have yet to play my turn I am playing my turn if you miss yours then the problem is yours not mine.

[Beta]

You raise a good point Daniel. Sort of similar to what snoopy has raised. At what point does trying to keep track of who has played and who hasn't become too mcuh of a hassle to be worth it. Generally it is only relevant during a war - but with a game this size, and with this many players, can you just envision the nightmare we would have if we had a bonafide world war.

As to your tech issue - sorry - I am not much help there.

Also - as BF has presumably left - and he was playing for both himself and MrBoo I believe, I am trying to track down some new players.