Lizzy's rise to greatness

[mzprox]

This was offered to be a team decision. but in the meantime I should try get our positions as close as possible then we can vote.

However: Dinner, if you 'demand' things, then I must ask you to try to set your claims right.. you say things as if they were facts while they are not..

things like we can make our own prophet.. it is just not realisticly possible.. we either spend a hundred turns for it or we get like 10% chance at most. none of these ways are reliable. You say that the 2500gold i offered could be spent better, but I wrote that it was offered as gold/turn (50 gpt for 50 turns) and the shrine would already give us 44 gold/turn and very soon it would be over 50.. we could had basically got the prophet for free and aztec still could had got lots of money for it (it was good offer by me I think). And some other examples: you said civplayers have luxuries we can trade for ..they have none. Or that we don't need spy, while we can still steal many techs. Or that maya is preparing an invasion against us while they are clearly not. or that they slave an army while maya doesn't use slavery for army, or anything at all, or when you say we lack certain resources while we don't etc.
Point is: facts need to be set right to make the right decision.
That shrine is extremely valuable for us and we have low chance to get it from elsewhere.. we must be ready to pay a lot for it. But don't worry i won't just give away our army for it or anything before we agree here.

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Caledorn is our new admin and Ozzy gave him access to our forums. Welcome!

[OzzyKP]

I demand a full vote before Mz goes and just does what ever the hell he wants yet again. This needs to be aired in a democratic manner and not letting his personal desires once again run rough shod over what everyone else wants.

Good idea. I agree that we should vote. Should I set up a new thread for a vote on the deal? Or should we do it here?

Mz, how much income (adjusted and raw) will we get from the shrine?

(If we are doing it here, I vote to accept the offer for the great prophet)

[Caledorn]

Isn't Caledorn a CFC poster?

Yes, but I am no longer part of Team CFC (nor any other team), as I am now both the host and admin of the game. I just wanted to let you guys know that I am here, so if there is anything you need to ask me in private in regards to rules, or anything, I am available to respond in private. And I also wanted to thank you for the trust that I have been given, since I participated on a team up until this point.

[Dinner]

I demand a full vote before Mz goes and just does what ever the hell he wants yet again. This needs to be aired in a democratic manner and not letting his personal desires once again run rough shod over what everyone else wants.

[Dinner]

Isn't Caledorn a CFC poster?

[Caledorn]

Just a quick statement to report that I have indeed been granted access to the forum, and a thank you for the trust you guys show in me.

[mzprox]

those units are not just borrows, I meant they need to be delivered by t170. But we can't send them as many so soon anyway. One point though: they would be used against egypt.. I will try to get it to a more reasonable number and timeframe then we will see.
(they don't want our scientist..or at least they think it doesn't worth more than 6-700 gold,and i strongly disagree.. so they instead will take something random, but later.. don't ask what is the logic in this.. this part is actually good for us. and after we gave them the whatever GP the full income will become ours.

[OzzyKP]

5rifles till 170? They just want to borrow them? And why not just take our great scientist now? Why wait till 220?

And would it be half of the base income or half the modified income?

The second offer isnt all that bad. I wo

[mzprox]

I'm realist, no need to worry about me. At this point we can't count on getting a prophet in the game unfortunately. A shrine could give up to 100 gold per turn later, this is such an economic boost we can't let pass. also Aztecs is not really our rivals, but could be an ally.. now against egypt and later even against maya and cfc.
So we will not give them 10 rifles, not even 5, but we should not let this chance pass if it's only about some units.

[Dinner]

No, we can generate our own great prophet so we don't need to make a devil's bargain. They can either accept a more reasonable price or we can do it ourselves. I'm willing to bet they would benefit from a reasonable exchange as well so they can either be reasonable or we do have the power to say no. You seem to emotionally invested to walk away when the deal is obviously a bad one so it is up to the rest of us to make you walk away.

They'll either come back with a more reasonable offer or a deal won't get done either way I can think of a lot of things to do with those 10 riflemen and 2500 gold. Half of the gold generated by the great shrine and a great scientist sounds fair to me but anything else is robbery and we can do better without it. Let's reformulate our plans based around that reality.

[mzprox]

There is a very hard bargain between us and the aztec about their prophet.. they know how valuable it is to us and they ask a lot. I offered them 50 gold/turn for 50 turn (2500gold), or 8-10rifles, not in once, but in a longer preiod of time..
however they were asking for our great scientist, 500 gold and 10 rifles asap. I told them that it's out of the question, we will not give as much.
Their next offer was this:
we share the shrine income 50-50% till t220 then we give them a great person and from then the full income would be ours. and we also give them 5 riflemen till t170

The problemwith this isthatwecan't really give up on riflemen during this time period.. we need them for our own war efforts, yet we shouldn't give up on the big economic boos the shrine could give us. without the riflemen this trade looks fair.. we trade agreat person for great person but only later, and untilthat point we share the income of the shrine. Yet we will get other benefits too: better passivespread,decreased spyaction cost,and about 6beakers/turn since it's a religious building. So I'd rather not pass on this trade.. I will try to decrease the number of rifles we shouldgive, and also the timeframe we shouldvdeliver them.

[mzprox]

Good to see you guys are still in it. Looks at a bit scary with those power graphs, though

check back in 10 turns Our powergraph will be near to the top dogs' .

[DNK]

Good to see you guys are still in it. Looks at a bit scary with those power graphs, though

[mzprox]

-None of our cities will produce wealth or research in the end (I just did not finish the turn yet), those were just tests to see how we can get rifling asap, but we will relly on aztec's money.
-we need that inland-sea galley to do fast trades with aztecs.
-Actually 3 of the 4 workers in the west will build road either from now or from next turn
-lighthouse is not for money. it gives food. more food->more production->better culture building capacity
-We build spy becasue 1, we still have 1000+spy point on RB and more techs to steal, but also those spies can play big part in our military strategy.(making cities revolt, cut roads etc). It doesn't matter if rb spends their spy point on us or not. the ycould run counter espionage mission if they want, but i don't think they would.
-Chicken itza wonder expires with rifling.. so no point even starting to build it.
-Everyone has cow or fish, none will trade for those. Also I think we have every type of luxury aztec has.
-that new settler will claim the silver so we can avoid unhappyiness.

[Dinner]

Some notes:

-In Kayseri instead of building wealth we should be building a library to increase culture to fight back against the cultural take over occuring. This will also improve research. We can make up the money by selling resources or borrowing more.
-Why build a galley on the inland sea? There isn't much there and there isn't likely to be much there.
-Ankara is wasting time build research when it could be building either a market or a bank all of which would help research more in the long term.
-We literally don't even have a single worker working on building a road out west. This needs to change.
-In Marsin we're building a light house when it is a border city without any defenders which is culturally being taken over by the neighboring Maya city because we're not producing any culture in that city at all. I know you want to work sea tiles to make money but your obsession is seeming more and more irrational. We should be building something which produces culture or failing that a defender is the city could be invaded by knights and taken in just two turns.
-Why even bother building a spy in Bursa when we spent most of our spy points and since RB knows we're using spies on them they've almost certainly directed most of their espionage points towards us. It seems wasteful when we could be building so many other more useful things (like a worker to build that road to the west or a trebochet).
-In aurora we could be building the Chichen Itza pretty quickly and given that we're on the verge of war and will likely face invasions from two directions and extra 25% to city defense sounds kind of good to me.
-We have an extra cow and a fish and will soon have an extra incense while Civplayers has two extra luxury goods we could trade for.
- For our settler & galley in the north we should settle on the silver resource as it is best to claim luxuries while we still can. Alternatively, settle where we can get the whale or the iron resource but none of them will be any good until we make harbors (or get the whale tech in that resource's case) so I'd really rather see one of our continental city locations built first.