Lizzy's rise to greatness

[OzzyKP]

I approved MJW. So if he comes by here... welcome!

I also posted on WPC to see if anyone left over there wanted to join us also.

[MJW]

Well you already know why I joined so I’ll cut to the chase. It’s nice to know that all the archives will be opened at the end of the game and of course I’m male.

RB posted this publically after they lost (in an excel sheet where they put all their games):
“Spanish Apolyton died at the hands of CFC and CFR. Civforum.de threw most of their army against a very weak WPC in retaliation for WPC's foolish decision to attack them very early in the game. RB consequently swept through and eliminated Civforum.de, claiming most of the cities to WPC's annoyance. Despite some excellent play to this point, RB did not account for the dangers of tall poppy syndrome coupled with full diplo. Most of the other teams correctly identified RB as the clear runaway and organized an epic dogpile. RB found themselves fighting on three or four fronts simultaneously, and combined with at least one tactical blunder which lost a large chunk of their army, this sealed their fate. (But there is some amazing footage in the vault hoping to not see the light of day.)”

I would guess that big RB power-drop was caused by the blunder.

mzprox, I think this is your civ at this point and you can do whatever you want. The only two logical things to do are quit (because there’s no way this game would even finish. The fastest way to do it and have our civ not get hijacked like the Mayas is to gift all our cities to someone like SANCTA did in an intrasite CFC demogame forcing the game to end.) The other plan is to try to take out Maya. We should of course try and push CFC to do more and other civs to attack them. I’m not good enough at Civ4 to comment on the micro. A third plan is to troll Aztecs but that’s not logical as the best way to troll them would be to give our cities to CFC.

I think the biggest problems with this game are:

1. Takes too long. Not avoidable unless you don’t use basic rules. This makes everyone leave so unless you are CFC or RB (which are active enough to not suffer from that) you basically end up with demo-game in name only. This happened in all three Civ3 demogames (Apolyton didn’t suffer in the first one but other teams did). The bright side is that unless you crash and burn at the start of the game (like Trip did when he lead Lux Invinata or WPC in this game) no-one can prove your team was bad. If there is somehow a Civ6 demogame I’m going to push hard for quick speed…

2. RB being allowed to join. Not because they are condescending but because ether two things would happen. They ether win the game or they get dogpiled and die. If they get dogpiled a bunch civs get handed extra cities just from geography and not from earning anything. That’s just too inbalancing for the game to mean anything. If they had won anyway this game would just have been a repeat of the intrasite demogame and a waste of everyone’s time.

3. WPC blowing their load at the Germans at the start of the game. This would insure that they would die and hand their land to other players.

It really sucks they were able to sucker punch you with that GG.

[MJW]

Well, after doing some more reading, you wouldn't find pulling a SANTCA acceptable. So trolling CivPlayers could be a good idea and you can probably get maya on your side. The SANTCA option could be used if this game slows down to an unacceptable pace or something else happens so our civ doesn't get hijacked like the maya. It might also be used as a threat in case someone is doing something unacceptable.

Edit: The reason why pulling a SANTCA is needed is because if we quit or refuse to move they will find a replacement and hijack our civ. If we choose to quit we need to be sure that we our comfortable with the consequences.

[MJW]

Well I just noticed that city-gifting is banned so pulling a SANTCA won't work. However, you can end the game indirectly in other ways. It is not a good idea to try and end the game directly (asking other teams). CFC and CivPlayers will both vote "no". CFC is still active and CivPlayers just took out our capitol and think we our just suffering from sour grapes from that. 2 out 5 is 40% and so we don't have the 2/3 majority needed. So being direct is useless and make people more entrenched into not quitting.

The reason I'm talking about this so much is having your Civ getting hijacked if you quit is total BS.

[mzprox]

I really think we should agree on some kind of draw with cfc and cp.. but very unlikely to happen. When some civs lose interest it leads to other civs losing it too.. creates imbalance, no-fun scenarios etc. And a very slow gameplay is also bad.. on average (less than) one turn/week. This time I too needed to pause it for two days, it's getting hard for me to find that 2-3 hours while I manage to do it properly.. and i could spend even more if i wanted.

anyway: in this new turn I'm still preparing our forces for an attack. In two more turns our units will arrive from maya (about 40 units), and with those I think we can move in to aztec territory. Now i1m producing mostly bombers, so those can give us advantage.
In the inner sea I have 4 loaded transports which now threatens 4 aztec citiies. To defend all of them they need quite big force.

[OzzyKP]

Are the ships safe from attack?

For my part I don't think we should try to sabotage or unnaturally end the game. I think we suffered a huge blow, but aren't out of it yet. I'd like to see this through. I just wish mzprox didn't have all the burden on his (very capable) shoulders.

[mzprox]

The transports are escorted by 4-5 battleships/destroyers. Aztec has only 2-3 ships there now so yes we are safe

[MJW]

Are the ships safe from attack?

For my part I don't think we should try to sabotage or unnaturally end the game. I think we suffered a huge blow, but aren't out of it yet. I'd like to see this through. I just wish mzprox didn't have all the burden on his (very capable) shoulders.

I'm just saying that just quitting is a bad idea because our civ would get hijacked like the Maya which is unacceptable. Trying to do it directly won't work for reasons I've outlined.

Of course, if mzprox still wants to play then this doesn't matter.

[OzzyKP]

The team isn't going to quit. If Mz no longer wants to play (which I'd totally understand!) then Hercules or I could take over. We just aren't as good as mz, so we'd fare worse in the war (so I'm very grateful for mz sticking it out!). But we're definitely not quitting!

[Hercules]

The team isn't going to quit. If Mz no longer wants to play (which I'd totally understand!) then Hercules or I could take over. We just aren't as good as mz, so we'd fare worse in the war (so I'm very grateful for mz sticking it out!). But we're definitely not quitting!

I agree on that. Btw do we know what CFC's view on the situation is. It has been a while I have forgotten.

[mzprox]

Currently it seems the game speed is 1 turn/2 weeks.. It was suggested thast we just settle on current score which we can't accept ofc.. not before we have a chance for revenge on the aztec. But then it was also suggested that we settle on score in 25 turns. This way the game would end in less than a year instead of just going for forever. I think we would still have a chance for wining, but not that great.. and tbh I'm more concerned on burning the aztec cities .

So what do you think?

About this turn: I prepared our forces to move in next turn into aztec territory. about 180 units, including 140 tanks, covered by about 20 bombers.
meanwhile we are threatening many aztec coastal cities from different directions. I will tell cfc to do the same on aztec eastern front.

[Hercules]

I popped in to have a look around. We are ahead on tech as far as I can determine. We have bombers and don't think anyone else has the tech. We should have Oxford University (again) in 4 turns and some other wonders.

There are a lot of big tank concentrations around. I think it is sensible to work with cfc on this. I note they too are at war with Aztecs and Maya. Fighters and bombers should give us and edge.

Our invasion fleet looks like it will be in a hard fought battle unless we can get some bombing raids in. Is that mistaken?

Getting rid of the Maya would speed up the game.

Also I note that there has been difficulty contacting uciv (HRE) to play their turns.

[MJW]

Ending the game on score now is the same as resigning. Not acceptable unless Civplayers+Maya start beating the crap out of us and CFC.

There's no way this game is going to finish. So if you think we are not getting totally shafted you should go for it (ending the game in 25 turns).

The game ending in 25 turns will obviously change our strategy. It's very hard or impossible for buildings to pay off for example. You would need to reassess everything to accommodate this.

If we end the game in 25 turns I think there are two general plans. Get CFC to attack CivPlayers in both of them. Then attack Maya or Aztec. You should choose which one will make us more likely to win. Aztec is probably the best choice as if we lose Aztec will have a 90%+ chance of having a higher score so attacking them helps us by lowing their score and raising ours. Maya is easier to take out more cities though...

If the game is not ending in 25 turns focusing on Maya is probably better idea than attacking Aztecs as their cities are easier to take. Don't allow CivPlayers being insolent change our gameplay.

[MJW]

25 turns * 2 weeks per turn = over a year. ): I would suggest you point this out and go with the lowest number of turns you feel okay with.

[Caledorn]

Grave news!!

Aztec has destroyed our capital! Aurora is gone!

After this they told me that they used a trick unknown for me: apparently if they unload a general anywhere in our land from a transport and then they promote it with +1 movement it can still get to move. While i protected our borders against commando attacks this was just too much. i think this is a stupid game mechanics and totally took my will to continue this game. I thought i did everything to protect our inner cities, then this happens.
If anyone is willing to take over please tell me.

Hey

I would just like to mention that I have inquired a bit about this specific tactic, and apparently it is a commonly used tactic, and not a bug/bad game mechanic. I understand how this must have felt like a "cheap" tactic when you're not aware of it, but I hope you can look at it in a light that you've learnt about a tactic that is fair use that you didn't know about before, even though that must be horribly difficult considering the result of what happened.

As for the turn pace, I have written a long post in the main game thread over at CFC. As I wrote in that post, I am very open to any suggestions, thoughts and ideas anyone might have - but I really really hope that we can find some solution to this situation, as the current turn pace is frankly ridiculous. I understand, based on what I'm reading in this thread, that the main problem does not lie with you, and that you really make a full effort to play your turns in a timely fashion, for which I am grateful - but if the only reason you feel that you don't want to call the game in it's current state is a desire for vengeance upon CP (Which is understandable, all things considered), I hope you can reconsider, because 1 turn per 2 weeks is a waste of resources on my server that could be better put to use in a game that people want to play in and that the players do not feel is a chore to play in, as obviously several participants in this game now feel this game has turned into.

But, as I wrote in the main game thread, I will leave the game open of course if that is what you players want. I just hope we can find some solution here that doesn't mean I need to run this game for another year to complete a meagre 25 turns. In that time I will probably have finished several more Pitbosses that I host for RB, which speaks volumes about how ridiculous this turn pace is...

Addendum: If you guys need hosting for Pitbosses with or without mods, don't be shy in asking.