Domination of Barbarians [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Sommerswerd]

So the plan now is to change to 20 hrs in 5 turns to give England enough notice.

[Greece (DoB)]

I was thinking more about it, well i feel that maybe we need to keep turns as short as possible 15-17hrs turns. We are playing at Mara speed this game with 20 or more hrs on the clock, it will take months to even get an average tech. Yes we all have signed for a long and EPIC game, still we need to be flexible.

Maybe slow it down now, but lets speed it up after the so called European Holiday season (No wonder the Euro Crisis ) to 12-14 hrs again.

[Sommerswerd]

When does the Holiday season end?

[Calanthian]

In Holland it will end half august.

BTW for those Americans: in most countries of Europe there are 6 weeks summer holiday for the CHILDREN.
We ADULTS have about half of that. But people choose when to go on holidays during those six weeks.

Furthermore a turn schedule of 24 hrs (RL) allows people to have a fixed routine when they play their turns, and this is in general good for their enjoyment (as it feels less than a chore) and it makes sure people miss less turns. Especially in a game with raging barbs, missing a turn can be disasterous.

[France (DoB)]

Turn 145 France starts DMW ritual again against the Roman invaders. All wars must end on Turn 155.

[Celtia (DoB)]

I will pit in with Greece's suggestion here, as I think 20+ hours is simply too much waiting around doing nothing. I don't need to login in often as it is, and even though I've been busy lately things move .. slowly. I have sympathy for the frontier nations who struggle with barbs though, so I hope it is possible to meet somewhere along the middle, as Greece suggested.

Also, shouldn't we get a July storythread now? We're still using the June one, and it's 2. July now.

[Sommerswerd]

I will start a new one tommorow . Still time to get your last votes (or licks) in.

[Japan (DoB)]

Greece has a point. I support the 15-17h turn timer.

[Sommerswerd]

Voting Post

Happy 4th of July to any from the United States!



Now is the time to vote for the June Diploscore winner.

I have been too busy with ongoing arguing about the ISDG to set up the voting progam, so again, Everyone can just PM me your votes again. Each Civ has 5 points to allocate anyway you choose, except you can not vote for yourself. So you can give 1 point to five different Civs or 5 points to one Civ or anything in between. If you don't vote there is no penalty, but you can't use the votes later.

I'm not picky about which account you use to send your votes as long as you just don't give away what nation you are, and as long as you dont't be a scummy double voter. Also please don't vote for yourself if you are subbing for anyone.

So for example, if China is casting votes for China and Japan, then Japan should not be voting for China, and China should not be voting for Japan.

Once again, we will leave the voting open all month, and announce the results at the end of the Month at the same time that we open the voting for next month. That way everyone gets plenty of time to read, catch up, notice that voting is going on etc. I will send everybody a PM.

Happy Voting

Most Importantly, Here is the current Leaderboard:

France = 26
Netherlands = 14
Arabia = 12
England = 10
Celtia = 10
Japan = 9
Rome = 8
China = 8
Ottomans = 7
Vikings = 7
Spain = 6
Byzantium = 5
Persia = 3

Here are the Final Results of the May voting:

France = 15
Arabia = 9
Rome = 8
Celtia = 6
Netherlands = 6
England = 4
Byzantium = 4
Japan = 5
China = 3
Persia = 3
Vikings = 2

As a recap Here are the Final Results of the prior voting:

April 2012 - France: 11, Netherlands: 8, Ottomans: 7, England: 6, Spain: 6, China: 5, Vikings: 5, Celtia: 4, Japan: 4, Arabia: 3, Byzantium: 1

Congrats to France, the current score leader . Well done everyone and keep it up!

[Rome (DoB)]

To France: I have rejected your IG peace treaty as I do not feel it appropriate to let my OOC real life emotions influence what actions my IG leader takes, in spirit of the diplogame. I asked the administrator if there was a way to politely ask you to find a different storyhook than the Christian one, as I find it difficult to play on from a personal perspective. Your response to me in PM where you tell me that you have French ancestors (so do I by the way) and that you find my slavery-hook offensive is odd considering your IG actions. You are not playing the real France, nor am I playing the real Rome.

I have not invaded your nation to capture any of your workers, and my storyline posts and following invasion of you were a direct IG response to your aggression towards my nation. I know I have used harsh language and outright lies about your IG actions in some of those storyline posts, but so have you about my nation. Isn't that part of the point in a demogame? Lies, propaganda etc? We can go on insulting one another in the IG thread for a long time like that, and so far it's gained us both votes, so I suppose the other players find it entertaining (and so have I, until this part appeared). The point is: It is not personal but part of the RP, and it does not reflect upon you as a person. However, if someone asked me in private if I could please stop using something that is OOC offensive to them, I would of course consider that and try to find a different hook or word it differently. Using OOC personal information where you know that someone personally feels bad about your IG storyline to force them into accepting IG peace, and to keep them quiet on your IG actions? I'll leave that question hanging.

I now ask you politely in public if you would be so kind as to find a different storyhook than the one you are pursuiting (which you have told me in private that you intend to pursuit if I do not accept peace and quit talking about your capture of my worker), as I feel bad about it on a personal level. I will not respond to it, and I will of course not give you votes for it you continue with it. I do not wish to censor your creativity based on my emotions however, so if you wish to ignore my feelings on the matter, then I encourage you to continue using it as a storyhook if you want, as other players may enjoy it and it may of course net you more votes from them. If you want peace between Rome and France however, I suggest you find a proper IG story to do it with, and that you do not use OOC real life personal matters like my distaste for your current storyhook as a way of forcing your will upon my IG actions.

No matter what you do, I ask that you please do not continue and allow the IG conflict between our two nations to become a personal OOC conflict between the players (that would be you and me in this case) instead, as you tried to do with your PM to me. I have nothing against you on a personal level, and I am doing my best to leave the conflict purely fictional. Thank you.

To the rest of the players in the game: I am sorry about this, but I have to stand up for myself.

[Spain (DoB)]

In my opinion both nations have used hard words IN GAME, as is very understandable considering the nature of the conflict (a clash of civilisations, views on life (IG) ).

And I would always try to avoid things which are offensive OOC, so France: you could drop the subject..



That said:
I think there are still lots of options to cope with this IG.
You could tell stories about how you have liberty of religion in your country and that you actually embrace christianity, but that it is still too soon to make it your state religion.

Furthermore there have been countless wars between christian states, sects of chistianity, etc.
So make a story about an evil Christian sect (for inspiration: Kathars ?) so especially with a stonehenge and oracle you could easily argue that they didn't embrace true christianity; as then these heathen places of worship surely would have been destroyed..

OR avoid the religion theme as a whole and make very clear diplomatic demands..

[France (DoB)]

To Rome: I find your request to be offensive. It reminds me of the real world Islamists who threaten people for making cartoons of Mohammed. Such intolerance is offensive. As you said, "You are not playing the real France, nor am I playing the real Rome." I am not playing the real Christianity either so there is no difference in my opinion to betraying fictional versions of Rome, France or Christianity. I am writing stories about France that use real world history to make my fictional France appear more realistic and Christian tenets are now part of that storyline.

Nothing I have written criticizes Christian beliefs in any way. In fact, all I have done is to use a piece of fiction to portray Christian beliefs in a positive, and as historically accurate as possible given in-game events, way while giving you a storyhook for allowing your Romans to behave in a manner more consistent with your presumed real world Christian beliefs. There is no difference between my fiction and the Da Vinci Code novel or Pilgrim's Progress for that matter.

If it truly bothers you then I have given you the option of trading peace and stopping your Torino worker storyline in exchange for me stopping my Roman crucifiers of Christ storyline. If you feel it is more important for you to continue roleplaying fictional aggressive wars against France than it is to prevent something that offends you in real life then I submit to you that you are not truly offended!

I submit you are motivated to stop a realistic storyline that effectively points out the egregious behaviour that Rome is engaged in by its eternal vendetta against France. Roman behaviour that most modern people would find offensive if they actually thought about what Rome's in-game actions represented in real life terms, which is what my storyline tries to portray.

This is a diplogame and the objective is to write stories that portray our civilizations as realistically as possible. I believe my storyline is consistent with that objective. If you want to stop my storyline then simply have Rome repent for its evil ways and we can move on to other stories more to your liking. (In real life the Romans did eventually convert to Christianity due in part to the faith displayed by Christian martyrs so it is hardly unrealistic for them to do so in game). The choice is yours.

[Rome (DoB)]

In my opinion both nations have used hard words IN GAME, as is very understandable considering the nature of the conflict (a clash of civilisations, views on life (IG) ).

And I would always try to avoid things which are offensive OOC, so France: you could drop the subject..

Indeed, I have too been using very hard words. They have been fictional, and have absolutely nothing to do with the player who is playing France. My point is - if France (or anyone else) at any point had sent me a PM, or contacted the admin, stating that "Could you please ask Rome to tone down a notch or two on his insults X", my response would have been "Of course! I never meant to make anyone uncomfortable, and I'm sorry about that." (Also editing out the offensive statements from the posts) And if anything of what I have written have been offensive, then I offer my sincere apology. Let me know what it is, and I will avoid whatever that may be again in the future.

To Rome: I find your request to be offensive. It reminds me of the real world Islamists who threaten people for making cartoons of Mohammed. Such intolerance is offensive. As you said, "You are not playing the real France, nor am I playing the real Rome." I am not playing the real Christianity either so there is no difference in my opinion to betraying fictional versions of Rome, France or Christianity. I am writing stories about France that use real world history to make my fictional France appear more realistic and Christian tenets are now part of that storyline.

Nothing I have written criticizes Christian beliefs in any way. In fact, all I have done is to use a piece of fiction to portray Christian beliefs in a positive way and give you a storyhook for allowing your Romans to behave in a manner more consistent with your presumed real world Christian beliefs. There is no difference between my fiction and the Da Vinci Code novel or Pilgrim's Progress for that matter.

If it truly bothers you then I have given you the option of trading peace and stopping your Torino worker storyline in exchange for me stopping my Roman crucifiers of Christ storyline. If you feel it is more important for you to continue roleplaying fictional aggressive wars against France (very un-Christian behaviour by the way) than it is to prevent something that offends you in real life then I submit to you that you are not truly offended!

I submit you are motivated to stop a realistic storyline that effectively points out the egregious behaviour that Rome is engaged in by its eternal vendetta against France. Roman behaviour that most modern people would find offensive if they actually thought about what Rome's in-game actions represented.

This is a diplogame and the objective is to write stories that portray our civilizations as realistically as possible. I believe my storyline is consistent with that objective. If you want to stop my storyline then simply have Rome repent for its evil ways and we can move on to other stories more to your liking. (In real life the Romans did eventually convert to Christianity due in part to the faith displayed by Christian martyrs so it is hardly unrealistic for them to do so in game). The choice is yours.

I never requested - I asked politely. I never said I found your posts "offensive" - I said I found them uncomfortable. If a polite question to "please find a different storyhook because this one is uncomfortable for me" is offensive to you, then I am flabbergasted. And I find your comparison to Islamists pretty harsh, as I would never threaten you or anyone else with violence. I would ignore. And that is what I am saying I will do if you continue.

You are making this very personal by claiming my IG actions does not reflect my presumed faith, and by comparing me to fanatics who would use violence to force their will. I do not know what to respond to this as you are going directly at my throat as a person and personally accusing me of doing something IG that is "not consistent behaviour with my faith". Yes, I can deal with your storyline, as it's not the end of the world - and I have clearly stated how I will do so. All I did was ask a polite question if you could find a different storyline.

You are also stating that my IG actions are "evil". No, France - my IG actions are not "evil", and you know that perfectly well. They are a response to your invasion of Netherlands and Rome, your decision to run away with my worker that Rome had spent a lot of turns building, and your aggressive behaviour in general with demands about no espionage. You had to know you would suffer the consequences of those IG actions from your fellow players, as you are clearly a very skilled Civ4 player, so please don't try to portray yourself as a "good guy being abused" here in the OOC thread. If you can't deal with the IG consequences of your own aggressive IG acts without stooping down to a personal level and going after my throat as a person, I do not know what to respond without doing the same thing. Aka. I could fling out a lot of personal attacks on you for this - but out of respect for Sommerswerd and his tremendous effort in making this game a reality, and also you and the other players of the game, I will not do so.

So I will leave it at that, ignore the rest of your response, and let you decide whether or not you wish to continue your storyline as you feel. I do not wish to be "blackmailed" into doing an IG action you would prefer me to do to avoid further discomfort for myself.

[France (DoB)]

To Rome: I was apparently editting my post while you were replying. I agree that a couple of my remarks were too personal and I had removed some of them before reading your response.

It seems this matter has been settled so let the game and stories continue.

[Spain (DoB)]

I really need the turn length to be enlarged. I sure hope it will become a timer, as Sommerswerd announced, of 20 hrs.