Destruction of Foes (DoF) - Diplogame Light

[Inca (DoE)]

Calanthian, you haven't seen the map yet... Spain and Portugal both have plenty of room to expand to, and we can tweak them to have more without adding extra land (a lot of the map is plains and fairly marginal, realize). (slight spoiler Carthage's situation will rely heavily on not expanding west but expanding northeast into Sicily and Corsica and Sardinia if it can manage, both for early REXing and for later strategic value in holding the primary water corridor for itself (I think this is obvious to anyone that's seen a map of the Med, so I'm not worried about spoiling it ).

There are two people working on the map to ensure balance, and although I might suck at resource placement (I did, however, create an allocation system similar to yours), I think I've done a half-decent job in balancing starts and creating competitive zones. Still, some could be better, which we're working on, and then Ozzy's going through and fixing what I get wrong, and then we're talking about the issues throughout. We want to make sure no one's getting a huge advantage from their start.

I think before final release, I'm going to go through with BUG and plot cities to make sure everyone's got a pretty even start and REX opportunity.

Which is half the reason it's taken so long. The other half being issues over getting the mod. I will do the mod within 24 hours or so (I had a long doctor's appointment today so I couldn't get it done today), and then everything should be about ready. Hopefully, this will kick off within the next few days...

[OzzyKP]

It is easier for Portugal and Spain to drop some settlers off in NW Africa than for Carthage to walk them the whole way. It is actually a fair distance away. I think that'll be ok. Of course if we had a 13th player, that'd be an ideal spot to put them.

As for Hungary (and possibly Bulgaria) just because the civ isn't balanced now doesn't mean we can't balance it. What do people think of my suggestions? There is nothing magic about out of the box civ. Firaxis doesn't possess any balancing ability that is beyond the scope of we mortals. In fact Robert and I (and other diplogamers) did a fair bit of the balancing of BTS ourselves during development. Lets not just throw it all out, I posted it here so we can try and fix it. Plus the vote was pretty clear that people wanted custom civs, so it is up to us to balance them.

[OzzyKP]

And if people are concerned about the UB (I'm not) I removed the 5% science and made it require building walls first again.

[Inca (DoE)]

I feel like if we're doing custom civs, then perhaps every UU and UB should get a makeover, to be fair and all...

I feel like the UUs and UBs could be tailored for the starts, so that the naval civs get naval ones, the inland civs get mobility UUs or particularly useful UBs, civs in tight spots perhaps strong defensive Us, etc. That, custom names, custom flags, that's custom civs. We can take stock Us, tweak them a bit, and use those.

For example, Carthage's cothon UB could also add an extra 2XP to naval units, functioning as a weak drydock and giving industrial-era units level2 promotions, and it's UU could be a naval unit with maybe an extra movement point or an extra 1 cargo space or something, as I doubt they'll be getting a lot of use from their current UU in that spot.

The Spanish could have the citadel get an additional 25% reduction to siege attacks. Their UU (curaissier) could get defensive bonuses OR an addition to withdrawal chance.

Commando is still ridiculous, though, for a mounted unit.

Of course, the risk of unbalancing it is high with this.

[OzzyKP]

If some folks are having trouble accepting changes to one UU and one UB, making changes to 12 will be very difficult to get agreement on.

What are your thoughts for different Hussar stats?

[2metraninja]

I would say just use existing units from the game, which civs are not going to be in this game. Like keshiks and gers for the Bulgarians. And I would propose the UU for Hungary to be not a cavalry, but Cuirassier and instead of commando promotion to have the one that ignores terrain penalty.

[Inca (DoE)]

Get defensive bonuses is simple, easy, and would work with a game aimed to be a bit more defensive/easy than a full MP no-holds-barred bloodbath.

UB could just get a good boost to siege reduction, another 50% would do.

My suggestions.

[OzzyKP]

Both of those suggestions are much weaker bonuses than other UUs. Again, Russia also has a Cavalry UU that gets a whopping +50% bonus vs. mounted units. How is that bonus at all comparable to just giving cavalry defensive bonuses?

[OzzyKP]

My best two suggestions are:

4. 1 first strike, ignores terrain movement costs, +10% retreat rate (the keshik/hodge podge approach)
5. +20% retreat rate, -20 hammers to build (light cavalry approach)

Both of them fit with the unit being light, mobile cavalry.

[2metraninja]

My best two suggestions are:

4. 1 first strike, ignores terrain movement costs, +10% retreat rate (the keshik/hodge podge approach)
5. +20% retreat rate, -20 hammers to build (light cavalry approach)

Both of them fit with the unit being light, mobile cavalry.

Are you talking for the Hussars or for both Hungarian and Bulgarian UU?

[OzzyKP]

For the Hussars. Did you see my earlier post?

I was going to use the Keshik stats for the Bulgarian UU. Though if we are using those stats for the Bulgarian unit, the Hungarian unit shouldn't be the same. So unless someone objects I'm going to go with +20% retreat rate and -20 hammers.

If you wanted to do something unique for the Konnik, by all means suggest something.

[2metraninja]

Hmm.. I am in not an expert in medieval warfare, although I read and research a lot, but when I think about Hussars, they seems to me a later than the Horse Archers and well before modern Cavalry - as I said, light Cuirrasiers I think they should be.
According to which period you think - 1500's or 1800's, Hussar would be different.

1400-1500



and

1800's


Terrain ignore and -20 hammers I think this is what I would call Hussar if asked.


About the Bulgarian UU, they definitely used bow and hit-retreat tactics, even according to wikipedia:

Like all steppe peoples, they used ambushes and feigned retreats, during which they rode with their backs to the horse, firing clouds of arrows on the enemy.

But then again, those are authentic depictings of Bulgarian horsemen




and

The Byzantine historian Pseudo-Simeon stated that Krum sent a 30,000 strong cavalry, "the whole armoured with iron"

and:

When they make their enemies take to flight, they [...] are not content, as the Persians, the Romans [Byzantines] and other peoples, with pursuing them a reasonable distance and plundering their goods, but they do not let up at all until they have achieved the complete destruction of their enemies.

so, a First strike and Combat promotion Horse Archer without the Ignores terrain movement costs should make it

[LzPrst]

How long until likely start?

[Inca (DoE)]

Few days, not sure exactly. We need to give the map a final pass-over and compile everything for the mod, which first requires coming to a consensus on the unique civ/UU/UB.

[OzzyKP]

Yea, shouldn't be long.