Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[England (DoE)]

Bloody frogs!!

[Native America (DoE)]

Pretty much sums up being English, yep.

[England (DoE)]

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

don't really like crwoded maps

Oh dear, you ain't going to like Europe then. And I wouldn't get the English started on how close your captial is to theirs - you will find they rather blame you for it!

But great to have you on board.

[France (DoE)]

Hi everyone, had some trouble starting up this game even when I followed the instructions, hopefully solved now. I've sent a pm to Germany, maybe we can end this war. (My capital is a little bit too close to England's.. don't really like crwoded maps.. )

[England (DoE)]

Sorry to see France go... But I guess you guys did all you could to find a solution to this dispute. Best to continue on for the good of the game.

[Robert]

Ok, we're ready to proceed.
I'm not restarting the server, in a couple of minutes we're back on track.

In short, this was the dispute:
France built his 2nd city, Venice, on a place that was IC considered to be placed in territory that gave France an advantage (IC!) and therefore needed to be dealt with. First the Ottomans offered a settler for that city, which was rejected, then Germany approached it with armies. The city itself was undefended or barely defended.

At that moment France asked for a pause b/c losing his city was considered to be 'unmeasured' by the 'unmeasured war' definition, because it was his 2nd city. He also had troubles with Germany and Ottomans 'teaming up' at this stage of the game for RP reasons.
Most people agreed that he was wrong on the assumption that it was against the measured war policy to lose this city for various reason. He then said he based his actions on his understanding of one of my posts.
Then he concluded that he didn't like this kind of gaming and had different ideas about diplogaming.

I'm not going to judge him for his reasons. I'm sorry that he's leaving us (he's a new player in the diplo scene, I'll leave it to himself to share his name here or not) and I hoped that he would accept to continue.
Personally I do not think that Germany or the Ottomans did anything wrong.

Unfortunately things were a little bit unguided at first b/c of my vacation. Thanks to OzzyKP for picking up from there.
I closed the thread b/c I couldn't 'monitor' it as a game leader while being away from internet. I'm sorry that that caused an unpretty feeling for some, who felt like they weren't able to talk about it.

Right now there's a good player who wants to TMP sub for France.
Depending on how France is positioned right now he may decide to perm-sub it. He's aware of the situation.
I'll keep his name anonymous for obvious reasons.

The status now is that we continue from where we were before we paused.
I'll leave it to "New France" to deal with this situation.

Thanks for all involved parties for keeping this within control, no yelling, etc.
I'm very sorry that we lost a new player
I think it was unneeded, but I also learned that we should also spell out more detailed what measured war is. Maybe not with more text but with more clear text. We also must keep in mind that this tier1 situation was pretty special.
Having said that, we've had games before where someone's 2nd city was stolen (Persia, (evil guy!) did it with Russia last game)

Anyway, let's continue.

[OzzyKP]

Lets get this show back on the road.

[Robert]

France is officially out. He just feels like he had a wrong perception of what diplogaming is about.
I'm now looking for a tmp-sub and a perm sub. I have asked someone to sub already. If he won't answer before the end of today then I'll sub for France myself for now while looking for another player.

I think that we also need a perm-sub for the Mali.
Someone already talked about a friend of him willing to sub, please PM me about that. I'm lost in 200 PM's and can't find it.
The original Mali player most probably won't return so we need a perm sub there as well.

[DNK]

I wanted to wait for the full discussion on this during the likely vote, but I think it's best to weigh in now. From what I've heard and put together so far:

Germany has done nothing wrong. On the contrary, its actions are entirely logical, expectable, and appropriate given its situation. I think Germany clearly starts with the most difficult spot on the map. It has two creative civs on its X-axis borders that will likely be settling towards it, and then the Ottomans who will likely be pushing towards it to the south as Arabia will likely be first to get a settler out and will very likely grab the rest of Mesopotamia before the Ottomans: pushed in from all sides. For these reasons, Germany (and the Ottomans) had little option but aggressive military action early on in order to assure its ability to operate a functional and competitive civilization.

France, on the other hand, starts with the easiest T1 European start: it has a cultural trait, one to two peninsulas to backfill (plus African lands to the south), and really only one direct continental challenge unless the British get aggressive with their expansion. That France then decides to make a clear land grab into German and Ottoman lands with no military defenses is ridiculous. It is ridiculous in an IG sense as no ancient leader would have lasted long extending himself far into a highly contested region with no real military; it is ridiculous in an OOC sense as no player would expect that to work either. This is especially the case given France's IG needling and animosity-brewing with Germany. If France wishes to play "insult the Germans" with its IG character, expand into German lands, not produce a military, face a clearly barbaric and militaristic opponent so unarmed, and then claim rules have been broken after the Germans retaliate, it has itself violated the rules of common sense, as proof of such rule breaking has not been forthcoming save France's own stated interpretation of said rules.

France made a clear gamble based on a loose interpretation of the rules, and that gamble backfired quite expectedly. It would appear that Germany has played its hand to the best of its abilities and France has made a serious, clear blunder, and now for some reason this is resulting in Germany being put on the defensive and feeling the need to quit. This is not an acceptable state of affairs, especially if Germany were to leave.

[Robert]

The game will continue today. I hope with everybody happy.

[Native America (DoE)]

Get the game going, or more people will lose interest and find other things to do.

[St Jon]

This is the perennial problem with 'Real World' Maps. Europe is a nightmare and this kind of situation was always likely to occur. I fear it has got to be a case of accept your punishment and remember to garrison in future.

From what I have read Germany has done nothing wrong and certainly should not be driven to quit.

Also, I would suggest that as we are all adults, the European group I know are anyway, we should behave like adults and the game should not be suspended indefinitely whilst someone sits and sulks in a corner. If France wishes to compound their error by missing turns that could be used to grab the Iberian peninsula then so be it.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

I personally lost my third settler,

You had a third settler to lose? How despressing behind so quickly! Must be all the harems I have been building.

But bad luck there Russia, and great attitutde - just a shame we don't vote on attitude any more.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Posted here prior to migration to the org thread.

@Germany - I really understand your frustration. Everyone agrees that you have played perfectly reasonably in what is a grim starting location. And because I have been involved in the discussions these last days I know you have been reasonable throughout and concerned to get things going again. So don't go my friend. Its not as if it would actually help anyway since, as I understand it, the current delay is in RP/Ozzy trying to get hold of France.