Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Russia (DoE)]

Next time just post here that you have not finished your turn. Will take you just a sec!! That is the practice usually. Boys play with big sticks Vikings have proved that well.

I though it is clear that if I am not finished my turn that I am not finished my turn actually
I think it is notrmal and I always practice hitting EndOfTurn when actually finishing my turn. PYT clearly shows when someone is just loged-in, then exited, but not finishes his turn. I see some players playing but forgetting or not finishing their turn on purpose and thats why the game has made it only once till now to finish earlier, which is not good to my understanding.

But as I trully want to make every effort possible to avoid such situations in future, I will post here expict when I loged-in but still am not finished my turn from now on.

[Russia (DoE)]

Quote Originally Posted by England (DoE) View Post
Cool.

Now which button do I push to get London back?

Mine

Ah, you finaly admitted in public your puppet-master role

[Germany (DoE)]

Ah, you finaly admitted in public your puppet-master role

He he, I do not pull anyone's strings. Most of the world hates me! God knows why... the only country I ever attacked was France (and a few DA colonies when they Pained me)

But you, the super puppet-master expert

[Russia (DoE)]

Yes, yes, you are not pulling any strings, you are far more advanced puppet-master - you just use buttons

Quote Originally Posted by England (DoE) View Post
Cool.

Now which button do I push to get London back?

Mine

[Vikings (DoE)]

I will make a compromise now Russia. But I worry that you may have moved units north which you would have not if you hadn't logged after me. Yes the drafting would have happened anyway (sorry I wasn't familiar that the units will be available right away) I guess the only downside for me is that you would now have an extra turn to move closer any units from the south who you may have send north after you logged after me.

[Russia (DoE)]

Now, I dont blame you for loging and attacking me before I finished my turn.

Dont put it like it is all my fault. Yes, it happened, yes, I was angry that I was not able to finish my turn normally, yes, I drafted one unit and kept it in the city, which otherwise I would draft anyway and despite moved south, it would be in range to be returned the very next turn in to the city when I see your attack + the new draft that could occured if I was still first in the turn order this turn. So I would had 2 rifles anyway. But thats just hypothesis and we cant return the time back, because even with reload, I will know you are going to attack and this would spoilt everithing again. So now, I have 1 rifle less in the city that I would normally would have before you attack for second time, but I am not trying to put a blame. For me, I prefer to look at it just as a unpleasant accident.

In my games, I try to play in good faith and I will of cource not move reinforcements from south cities that otherwise would have not make it if it was not that mess with the turns and I did not knew about your attack before the end of the last turn.

[Vikings (DoE)]

Russia you have the responsibility to finish your turn. Why log the first time if you do not have time, just makes no sense. I saw you in the PYT that you spend enough mins in the game the first time so that gave you plenty of time to finish your movements. Usually 1-3 mins log ins and outs are considered log on problems so we wait then. So yes it was only natural to think that you forgot to end your turn. Now when this happens again posting here would be great, that what people in the past have done.

[Russia (DoE)]

As I said, I will post here in the future, just never saw anyone posting here about this before. I dont blame anyone

[India (DoE)]

I have a complaint to make OOC regarding something IC.

Currently China is making a vast army and smashing the Mongolians to pieces. This is absolutely bad form in regard to diplo style etiquette. What is worse is that NO ONE seems to care that the smallest nation in the world with five cities in the frozen tundra is being beaten down by one of the biggest strongest nations on the planet. Of course Mongolia should be more active in the diplomacy department, but considering that it was in Russia and China's interest to keep them down, there are few others Mongolia can turn to. Japan as well has suckered up to China resulting in nothing more than a complete isolation.

This also leads me into another point, who the hell "balanced" this map!? I've been counting resources in the East and I am simply flabbergasted. The Mongolian capital has 4 resources. No city spot within 10 tiles has more than 3-4 resources within its potential borders. In all of India with my 6 cities, there is a total of 20 resources. All of Japan has 16 resources with roughly 5 per city (one of the 4 Japanese cites has no resources).
Beijing alone has 8. Shanghai has 7. The third chinese coastal city Nanjing has 9. If you include the inland city of Kaifeng, those 4 cities of China have 29 resources. China's 4 cities covering the Chinese heartland has 50% more resources than all of India combined. China has 50-100% more bonus resources in its starting area than its neighbours. How the hell is that balance!??!?


I am not making a deal out of this for my sake, I am very happy playing India and I am quite content with the lands and resources I have. But I am finding a vast discrepancy in balance caused by the vastly unfair distribution of resources. And this is not the first time that a diplomap that was tweaked for "balance" turns out to be anything but! I really do not understand how anyone could take a look at this map and say "this seems balanced". Not only does China has vast lands to expand, those lands are infinitely richer than any of its neighbours'. Could someone explain to me the thought behind this?

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Arent you out there next to the Mongolians and Chinese? If you think Mongolia is being bullied then why not help them instead of asking others to do it? Russia is already at war with 3 other countries... Are they supposed to fight China too? If you think China has too many resources, then take them!

If you havent noticed... Europe has her own problems... and you arent getting involved in those either, so you should have plenty of resources to help Mongolia... that is if you are really as concerned as you are pretending to be

You point out that China has many more resources than her "neighbors", which in the first place is very different from "neighbours" out here in Europe. How far is the Indian Capital from the Capital of Russia, China or Mongolia? You dont really have any neighbors... at least in the European sense... but that is a side point...

The main point is that China is surrounded by "neighbors" who theoretically should have been cooperating... either actively or passively, to contain and weaken them... What seems to have happened instead, is Mongolia played their role, while India and Japan dropped the ball, opting for isolationist stances and appeasement postures with China. The Mongols' land, and moreover, the map in general, seems designed to pressure, if not force civs to fill their historical roles. So the Mongols are given poor resources and a location with Tundra to the North Tunda and ocean to the East and Desert Mountains to the West, to force them into a deathmatch with their resource rich neighbor to the South. China has lots of resources precisely to induce her neighbors to covet them.

So if China is a monster, she is a monster of your own creation. If she has many resources, it was to give her a fair chance against the surrounding pressure that should have come, but never came, from India and Japan... Japan, India and Mongols were supposed to see the wealth of China and say "Hey we should do something about that!" Mongolia got it, but apparantly, India and japan never did. That's my analysis.

Another point about balancing... AFAICT, resources are roughly balanced against the # of neighbors and available land. So if you have alot of neighbors with little room to expand or you are trapped on an island, you get alot of resources. On the other hand, if you have few neighbors or no neighbors (like India), then you get few resources, because theoretically, you would be able to REX like crazy.

I know that at this point, the land is all taken, so what might have theoretically happened is basiclly irrelevant... I also realize that you are really just venting a little... so my comments are all tongue-in-cheek and in good humor... It seems like India is doing fine BTW... better than Ottomans anyway

[Inca (DoE)]

In no way am I bashing their playing style, as they've managed to do a hell of a lot with what little they have, and much respect OOC...

They've got the Mids.

Basically explains this whole situation and why the start looks less fair than it was. Hard to REX when you've thrown whatever it is, 500 hammers into that.

That said, no way in hell I'd want that start

And, yeah, a lot of Incaco has crap for resources, so I don't want to hear any whining There are like 3 solid city/resource locations and then a bunch of places splitting 1 resource. But I had no neighbors (although I feel like I should've been more compensated for the barbs+jungles combo, but w/e it's worked out well enough). So, despite have #3 spot in land area, I have like 14 non-whale resources right now in all of my mainland territory, a lot of which were calendar ones or weren't settled until I had Education due to distance.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Basically explains this whole situation and why the start looks less fair than it was. Hard to REX when you've thrown whatever it is, 500 hammers into that.

Exxxxxactly... I did not even realize they had Mids' but that was like 4 early settlers they gave up to get those...

[India (DoE)]

So in other words, Japan, India and Mongolia was supposed to be forced to make war on China and not aim for peaceful development?? How silly of Mongolia to make the Pyramids, they were "supposed" to make an all out army and invade China." Seriously!?

Also, how is a civ which has very few resources compete against one that has more than twice as many? You say that Japan and India should have done something about it, well first of all, I took over India AFTER China had city spammed to contain India AND city spammed to contain Mongolia, all at a time when India had NO military due to Arabia's recent invasion. It is difficult to catch the metaphorical ball when your enemy so greatly outstrips you in early production. Of course, due blame should be handed to Japan for sucking up to China rather than challenging her, but has the map maker seriously designed the map to be balanced on the premise that all neighbours of China would attack her? A civ with vast resources and a defensive advantage? That was the premise for balance? Why did the map maker block in India completely with only 2 land exits? One of which is as close to China's capital as it is to India's?

Certainly the original Indian player did a crap job, but once again, was the premise of China's balance that:

A. All her neighbours should be aggressive
-and
B. All her neighbours should be skilled players
-and
C. All of those neighbours should be more inclined to deal with each other than with China
-and
D. China's initial headstart would NOT enable them to gain a production advantage which they could use to seize strategically valuable positions
-and
E. China would not be conducting any diplomacy to make her safe from harm.
-AND
F. China's superior production and tech would not make them too scary to attack for nations that were poorer?

Note that if just one of those suppositions fails, then the entire notion of balance in the region fails.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

So in other words, Japan, India and Mongolia was supposed to be forced to make war on China and not aim for peaceful development??

Not necessarily War, but certainly not the peaceful conciliatory stance that Japan and India took (AND CONTINUE to take). All three of you have only one direction to expand where there is ample resources... that was toward China... but two nations continually choose to instead go into their respective corners and leave China alone... Who's fault was that? Certainly not Russias' or Arabia's fault, and certainly not the mapmaker's fault. I mean the Mapmaker practically gave you guys a neon arrow pointing towards China... you just choose to ignore it out of fear.

How silly of Mongolia to make the Pyramids, they were "supposed" to make an all out army and invade China." Seriously!?

Yes, seriously! That is exactly what we are saying! I don't understand what is so impossible to comprehend about that. The Mongols are supposed to act like MONGOLS, not Egyptians... Building Mids at the expense of REX was a very bad decision, and it at least partly to blame for this situation. especially when the good land was all in one direction.

Also, how is a civ which has very few resources compete against one that has more than twice as many?

Uh... is that a serious question? If so, the Answer is War... REX... Culture... Alliances with the nations around the wealthy one... you know, Civ 101 type stuff. You seem to suggest that if someone has more resources they automatically win.

... well first of all, I took over India AFTER

That is a seperate issue. All that means is that the person prior dropped the ball, rather than you... It DOES NOT mean that the map was unfair as you suggest.

China had city spammed to contain India AND city spammed to contain Mongolia

Right, so basically China outplayed India and Mongolia... because if someone city spams to contain you, and you find yourself trapped, there is no choice but to fight your way out. Mongolia did this, and India did not. That has nothing to do with map balance and eveything to do with poor decisionmaking. Also, it is proof that China recognized early where the key strategic territory was and claimed it... and THAT is the real reason... not China's resources that China is doing so well vis-a-vis her neighbors.

Of course, due blame should be handed to Japan for sucking up to China rather than challenging her

My thoughts exactly

but has the map maker seriously designed the map to be balanced on the premise that all neighbours of China would attack her?

Yes, it seems that way... since you readily admit that Japan was foolish not to "challenge" China and you say the previous India player played poorly by letting China trap India.

A civ with vast resources and a defensive advantage? That was the premise for balance?

No, that was the premise for China... ie making China perform in a historically accurate way.

Why did the map maker block in India completely with only 2 land exits? One of which is as close to China's capital as it is to India's?

Is that a serious question?... Obviously, to encourage India to either contest China or Arabia early, possibly by expanding into southeast Asia. That makes it even more obvious that India was expected to be pushing back against China, further justifying China's superior resources.

Certainly the original Indian player did a crap job

Right... but then, by your own admission, the Map is not to blame... it was poor play.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

As for your "suppositions":

A. All her neighbours should be aggressive
-and
B. All her neighbours should be skilled players

Yes this seems right. First, your complaints about India and Mongolia's starts (poor resources, land + choke points) seem to be a red flag from the Mapmaker that you were supposed to be aggressive toward China, to get more resources and avoid being trapped... When you get alot of resources, it engcourages you to focus on developing what you have. When you have few resources you (should) expand to get more. Second, IIRC the players in Europe are high-level, Asia are mid-level and the ones in Africa and the Americas are the novice-level. So it was reasonable to expect India and Japan to be reasonably skilled players.

C. All of those neighbours should be more inclined to deal with each other than with China

No... this is not necessary. You did not have to deal with each other at all to avoid being dominated by China. All you (India, Japan, and Mongolia) had to do, is recognize that you could not be peaceful and co-operative with China. If all of you were acting against China as you were supposed to, China would have been contained, but her resources would have allowed her to remain competitive. That's how it was supposed to work, but India and Japan chickened out.

D. China's initial headstart would NOT enable them to gain a production advantage which they could use to seize strategically valuable positions
-and
E. China would not be conducting any diplomacy to make her safe from harm.

No this is not correct. China having more resources is irrelevant until they get them developed and connected. You dont need resources to REX, you just need settlers. Everyone can build settlers, everyone can tech slavery to slave settlers... so one has very little to do with the other... especially early in the game. Mids become available very early with Masonry, so sacrificing early settlers for Mids was one of the culprits here, not a lack of resources. Again this is exactly what was supposed to happen if India and Japan did not fufill their roles in containing China... and this is precisely WHY India cant simultaneously complain about the map and still be cooperative with China.

F. China's superior production and tech would not make them too scary to attack for nations that were poorer?

That is a courage issue, not a Map issue... China is too scary?!? If you are scared to face China then what are you complaining about? If a nation has superior resources, being afraid of them will not change that... only facing them will.

So it is not any more reasonable for the mapmaker to assume that civs would cower in fear from a wealthy nation than it was for him to assume that civs would challenge a wealthy nation to contain them and prevent them from getting too powerful. At least it seems clear which was the correct option.

Note that if just one of those suppositions fails, then the entire notion of balance in the region fails.

As I have shown, this statement is just flat out incorrect.