Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Arabia2 (doe)]

Score does not include one very important element: strong allies who upgrade my obsolete soldiers for me. that was my point. I know you are paying for this upgrade by neglecting your research, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it, it's just an other strategy and probably better than mine that is trying to get the tech to build advanced troops, but without productive cities I can't build them anyway . But while my way increase my rank because techs give score yours do not (military is not included in the scoring).
This is ofc irrelevant to the subbing situation, just my opinion about that rank is far from being the perfect indicator.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

As a side note: rank isn't even a good indicator how powerful one nation is. I'm more advanced (so higher ranked) than Turkey yet they have destroyers and I don't.. you get the point .

Yes I get the point high ranked nations who choose to neglect their military in favor of fast technological advancement constantly try to make this point, (apparently this weak, stale argument never gets old) but the point is wrong... Israel just made a similar point, that being ahead in score is different from having a large Military. However the size of military is not a major factor in the rank of a civ. France had the biggest Military during the Great War, but they had the lowest rank in their Axis bloc.

Rank is based on score, and score is based on the overall health of the civ. It is preposterous for a higher ranked civ, who has a healthier, more advanced, higher score nation, to whine that a lower ranked civ shouldnt be able to attack them, because they neglected their military to get higher in rank while the other did not. "You can't attack me, even though my score is higher than yours, because I don't have any military!" How ridiculous! Stop tech-racing and build some military! If you cant defend your advanced nation, then you havent really built an advanced nation have you?

Looking at score keeps nations honest. Subjective notions about who is more "powerful" are irrelevant, because there is no way to objectively evaluate that. The only measure that we can look at objectively is score. Rank is based on score, not military. You use your military to protect, or increase your score. If your score is built on a house of cards (ie it is unsupported/unprotected), then it deserves to be toppled by a nation who has taken the time to build a REAL foundation, ie a military.

[Japan (DoE)]

Since we can't agree and we have no available subs I say:

Put Zulu and China under Ai control (Aztecs can swap to China if they wish)
Adopt a rule that no one can attack an ai civ unless lower ranked.

That's it and let the game going

I like this idea better then the other idea's out there.

[Arabia2 (doe)]

No. I reject this rule generally, as it is another rule that is obviously targeted at Turkey specifically.

Nah it was targeted at the "superpowers", that they don't just overrun these nations for Whatever reasons. But make a better rule or no rule at all, I don't care too much.
As a side note: rank isn't even a good indicator how powerful one nation is. I'm more advanced (so higher ranked) than Turkey yet they have destroyers and I don't.. you get the point .

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

The Mali are twice as strong as Israel (at least).
Giving Zulu cities tot the Mali is absolutely not fair towards Israel.

Israel is ranked significantly higher than Mali, but I can see your point Israel, Mali is Militarily stronger. I could see a comprimise where Israel got Nain back and also Zulu's islands (Madagascar and the island near Arabia) and Mali got the rest... But that would put BOTH Israel and Mali ahead of Turkey, so I would only accept this if Azteca player switched to China, and Turkey got all the remaining Azteca cities.

Africa is not some playground.

I agree with this 100%

It's ridiculous to continue to pretend that we can find perma-subs we can't find.

Yes, this is all too true.

they now act like they have some invested say in what happens to the civ.

I have at least as much say as anyone else. Many players are offering arbitrary solutions, so I am offering mine. The difference, is that having quietly managed a low-ranked, unwanted, civ faithfully so that others could continue to enjoy the game in 'ignorant bliss', I have more information about the situation in Zululand, so why should I not speak up?

Another thing worth mentioning, is that Natives are contradicting themselves a tiny bit here and simultaneously proving both my points. Subbing should be done QUIETLY, or not at all. The Natives reaction to me subbing for Zulu is EXACTLY why subbing has to be quiet.

Now here is the contradiction... The situation we are in, where we can't find a sud for an unwanted, low-ranked civ, is exactly the situation we were in when I took over the Zulu. See now how impossible it is for a sub to step in publicly? Natives are complaining that the game remains paused, complaining that they want to continue, or they will quit, but then rejecting the very solution that allowed the game to keep going when the Zulus first quit, ie a current player perma-subbing. There is nothing wrong with Natives stance, everything they say makes sense, but it just illustrates how important it is for subs to be quiet, not public.

Put Zulu and China under Ai control (Aztecs can swap to China if they wish)

Yes, I agree, since Natives reject having anymore permasubs, just put them both to AI while we keep looking for subs. It seems obvious that Azteca player has not decided to take over Chinese (he hasn't commented at all on this situation). If China is AI, Azteca can take over if they wish, or not, but at least the game can continue.

Adopt a rule that no one can attack an ai civ unless lower ranked.

No. I reject this rule generally, as it is another rule that is obviously targeted at Turkey specifically. Turkey is at war with Aztecs and if Azteca player decides to take over China, then Azteca will be AI and I am not stopping my war against Azteca for an OOC reason like that. Also, India is at war with China, and India is ranked lower than China. India should be able to keep fighting China as long as they want even if it means continuing to fight after India is higher than China in rank.

There's no subs. So just put the civs with no subs to AI and that's it, keep the game going, no arbitrary rules adopted mid game.

[Inca (DoE)]

Agree with the nation I subbed through the renaissance. Aztecs should make their opinions known on this whole "taking over China" thing sometime...

[note that the Aztecs are the lowest-ranked civ for obvious reasons, so that might not work out. Exchange "unless in the bottom half of civs" for "unless lower ranked" imo]

[Arabia2 (doe)]

Since we can't agree and we have no available subs I say:

Put Zulu and China under Ai control (Aztecs can swap to China if they wish)
Adopt a rule that no one can attack an ai civ unless lower ranked.

That's it and let the game going

[Native America (DoE)]

The Mali are twice as strong as Israel (at least).
Giving Zulu cities tot the Mali is absolutely not fair towards Israel.

Africa is not some playground. I hope some good sub wants to take over the Zulu and lead the civ in the best interest of the Zulu.

But that's the point. There ARE no subs. IF there was a sub, we'd take the first sub we find and stick them in the much more important civ of China. We can't even do that!

It's ridiculous to continue to pretend that we can find perma-subs we can't find. And I'm not willing to let the game continue on hiatus while we try to whistle up subs; we're already more than one week paused. Nor am I willing to play a game that has a person playing one civ perma-playing another, or semi-perma-playing another. Indeed, the current strong position of Ottomans on Zulu shows exactly WHY we should NEVER allow a player to sub another civ in the game for more than a couple turns; they now act like they have some invested say in what happens to the civ, having apparently heavily linked the two nations militarily and economically.

ACCEPT that we MUST contract. Decide how to do it. Decide SOON. If it isn't decided by Monday at the latest, I'll simply stop bothering to check the forum and won't notice when the game restarts, and probably won't consider it worth MY time to continue playing the game.

[India (DoE)]

i can ask some of my former subs if they might want to take a crack-pot-shot at one of those messed up little empires...

[Israel (DoE)]

The Mali are twice as strong as Israel (at least).
Giving Zulu cities tot the Mali is absolutely not fair towards Israel.

Africa is not some playground. I hope some good sub wants to take over the Zulu and lead the civ in the best interest of the Zulu.

[Inca (DoE)]

Fine, Turkey. I keep forgetting you're such a small power. You have an oversized impact on the game

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

...just have Aztec move to China.

Agreed. Everyone agrees with this, except apparently, the most important party... the Aztec player. We have not heard from him on this.

,

let Zulu get gobbled up

No. I do not agree to this. I have worked too hard protecting nurturing, arming and developing this nation, for it to just be parcelled out. And what about the units they have? Many of these are from Turkey. I object to them just being arbitrarily given away. I am OK with Mali getting ALL of Zulu cities, and units, but other than that Zulu needs a sub. Either it all goes to Mali or Turkey or Mongolia subs until a proper sub can be found. Anything else and I am DoWing someone, rest assured.

Again, I am willing to perma-sub Zulu if it means I can do something fun with it

No. I also do not accept this. Again I worked too hard to build that civ up to just let it become your playground to just wreck it and "have fun with it", whatever that means. A sub should play the civ responsibly and for the long term benefit of the civ, not to just crash it into every rock and pole and 'see what happens'. Sorry Inca, but I would prefer that Mongolia gets the password and plays the Zulu. I have given the workers and cities and tech plenty of advance orders. Plus, you playing Zulu is the same as I keep playing them, because either way it will be seen as a Russian vassal, that's why I gave Zulu up in the first place, so I don't think that's going to work.

Even though the Aztecs have had some cities returned, they really do deserve to take over China... they are a solid player and story-teller and deserve a chance at a great power

I agree

letting the Natives keep Tijuana

Thats fine.

and the current oil city in dispute or letting the Vikings keep it,

Lets just say it stays in dispute

giving the other major cities to the Americans

Nope, that will never happen. Turkey is still at War with America, and America is ranked higher than us, so gifting America cities is pointless, they might as well be gifted to Turkey.

Whatever we decide, we need to decide it quickly. If we don't get this figured out in 48 hours, can we agree to let the Aztecs take over China and AI the Zulu and Aztecs

I agree to this

with non-regional powers agreeing not to conquer them

Nope. I will not agree to this. I know that by "Non-regional Powers" you mean to exclude Turkey, and I reject that. Turkey is regional power. Even if you disagree, that's irrelevant, because I am not agreeing to that regardless.

[Inca (DoE)]

Whatever we decide, we need to decide it quickly. If we don't get this figured out in 48 hours, can we agree to let the Aztecs take over China and AI the Zulu and Aztecs, with non-regional powers agreeing not to conquer them (and I will agree to stay out of remaining Aztec lands)? Basically, let the smaller regional powers fight it out against AI to gain territory.

[Inca (DoE)]

Again, I am willing to perma-sub Zulu if it means I can do something fun with it and not really contribute much to great power politics. I would be willing to let the Mali take over some of the territory, leaving just the "Democratic People's Republic of Zulu Master Chief Ulundi the Erratic" in the remaining territory in the south. I won't develop any oil or uranium it has until such a time as these resources are widely available (not that I would be able to).

Even though the Aztecs have had some cities returned, they really do deserve to take over China. Even when their full civ is returned by me, the Natives, the Americans, and the Vikings (or not, I guess colonialism never dies), they are a solid player and story-teller and deserve a chance at a great power, I think, rather than a regional power.

If Mongolia is still in the game, so be it, let's move forward.

That just leaves the Aztec territories. I have no issues letting the Natives keep Tijuana and the current oil city in dispute or letting the Vikings keep it, giving the other major cities to the Americans, and letting me keep Cali. Cali isn't a great city, and it will be culturally pressed by me now after so many turns of my control and the loss of Aztec control. The Americans will get a huge boost with the rest, which is great for them, and the Natives will get a minor boost and another oil resources (they already have some). Our payback for being isolated half the game...

[Yes, I'm aware my insistence over the Aztecs taking over China is a good bit self-serving in that I can keep that one city, but that one city isn't much of a boost to my economy if anyone has paid attention, and I do believe in what I am saying about the Aztecs' deserving that.]

[Native America (DoE)]

If Mongolia is truly playing their own turns, and are not also a temp-sub from in game, then just have Aztec move to China, let Zulu get gobbled up, and let's move ON. Everyone has their own idea of what they want to do, but the lack of concensus simply means we end up doing NOTHING.