Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Israel (DoE)]

The Mali are twice as strong as Israel (at least).
Giving Zulu cities tot the Mali is absolutely not fair towards Israel.

Africa is not some playground. I hope some good sub wants to take over the Zulu and lead the civ in the best interest of the Zulu.

[India (DoE)]

i can ask some of my former subs if they might want to take a crack-pot-shot at one of those messed up little empires...

[Native America (DoE)]

The Mali are twice as strong as Israel (at least).
Giving Zulu cities tot the Mali is absolutely not fair towards Israel.

Africa is not some playground. I hope some good sub wants to take over the Zulu and lead the civ in the best interest of the Zulu.

But that's the point. There ARE no subs. IF there was a sub, we'd take the first sub we find and stick them in the much more important civ of China. We can't even do that!

It's ridiculous to continue to pretend that we can find perma-subs we can't find. And I'm not willing to let the game continue on hiatus while we try to whistle up subs; we're already more than one week paused. Nor am I willing to play a game that has a person playing one civ perma-playing another, or semi-perma-playing another. Indeed, the current strong position of Ottomans on Zulu shows exactly WHY we should NEVER allow a player to sub another civ in the game for more than a couple turns; they now act like they have some invested say in what happens to the civ, having apparently heavily linked the two nations militarily and economically.

ACCEPT that we MUST contract. Decide how to do it. Decide SOON. If it isn't decided by Monday at the latest, I'll simply stop bothering to check the forum and won't notice when the game restarts, and probably won't consider it worth MY time to continue playing the game.

[Arabia2 (doe)]

Since we can't agree and we have no available subs I say:

Put Zulu and China under Ai control (Aztecs can swap to China if they wish)
Adopt a rule that no one can attack an ai civ unless lower ranked.

That's it and let the game going

[Inca (DoE)]

Agree with the nation I subbed through the renaissance. Aztecs should make their opinions known on this whole "taking over China" thing sometime...

[note that the Aztecs are the lowest-ranked civ for obvious reasons, so that might not work out. Exchange "unless in the bottom half of civs" for "unless lower ranked" imo]

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

The Mali are twice as strong as Israel (at least).
Giving Zulu cities tot the Mali is absolutely not fair towards Israel.

Israel is ranked significantly higher than Mali, but I can see your point Israel, Mali is Militarily stronger. I could see a comprimise where Israel got Nain back and also Zulu's islands (Madagascar and the island near Arabia) and Mali got the rest... But that would put BOTH Israel and Mali ahead of Turkey, so I would only accept this if Azteca player switched to China, and Turkey got all the remaining Azteca cities.

Africa is not some playground.

I agree with this 100%

It's ridiculous to continue to pretend that we can find perma-subs we can't find.

Yes, this is all too true.

they now act like they have some invested say in what happens to the civ.

I have at least as much say as anyone else. Many players are offering arbitrary solutions, so I am offering mine. The difference, is that having quietly managed a low-ranked, unwanted, civ faithfully so that others could continue to enjoy the game in 'ignorant bliss', I have more information about the situation in Zululand, so why should I not speak up?

Another thing worth mentioning, is that Natives are contradicting themselves a tiny bit here and simultaneously proving both my points. Subbing should be done QUIETLY, or not at all. The Natives reaction to me subbing for Zulu is EXACTLY why subbing has to be quiet.

Now here is the contradiction... The situation we are in, where we can't find a sud for an unwanted, low-ranked civ, is exactly the situation we were in when I took over the Zulu. See now how impossible it is for a sub to step in publicly? Natives are complaining that the game remains paused, complaining that they want to continue, or they will quit, but then rejecting the very solution that allowed the game to keep going when the Zulus first quit, ie a current player perma-subbing. There is nothing wrong with Natives stance, everything they say makes sense, but it just illustrates how important it is for subs to be quiet, not public.

Put Zulu and China under Ai control (Aztecs can swap to China if they wish)

Yes, I agree, since Natives reject having anymore permasubs, just put them both to AI while we keep looking for subs. It seems obvious that Azteca player has not decided to take over Chinese (he hasn't commented at all on this situation). If China is AI, Azteca can take over if they wish, or not, but at least the game can continue.

Adopt a rule that no one can attack an ai civ unless lower ranked.

No. I reject this rule generally, as it is another rule that is obviously targeted at Turkey specifically. Turkey is at war with Aztecs and if Azteca player decides to take over China, then Azteca will be AI and I am not stopping my war against Azteca for an OOC reason like that. Also, India is at war with China, and India is ranked lower than China. India should be able to keep fighting China as long as they want even if it means continuing to fight after India is higher than China in rank.

There's no subs. So just put the civs with no subs to AI and that's it, keep the game going, no arbitrary rules adopted mid game.

[Arabia2 (doe)]

No. I reject this rule generally, as it is another rule that is obviously targeted at Turkey specifically.

Nah it was targeted at the "superpowers", that they don't just overrun these nations for Whatever reasons. But make a better rule or no rule at all, I don't care too much.
As a side note: rank isn't even a good indicator how powerful one nation is. I'm more advanced (so higher ranked) than Turkey yet they have destroyers and I don't.. you get the point .

[Japan (DoE)]

Since we can't agree and we have no available subs I say:

Put Zulu and China under Ai control (Aztecs can swap to China if they wish)
Adopt a rule that no one can attack an ai civ unless lower ranked.

That's it and let the game going

I like this idea better then the other idea's out there.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

As a side note: rank isn't even a good indicator how powerful one nation is. I'm more advanced (so higher ranked) than Turkey yet they have destroyers and I don't.. you get the point .

Yes I get the point high ranked nations who choose to neglect their military in favor of fast technological advancement constantly try to make this point, (apparently this weak, stale argument never gets old) but the point is wrong... Israel just made a similar point, that being ahead in score is different from having a large Military. However the size of military is not a major factor in the rank of a civ. France had the biggest Military during the Great War, but they had the lowest rank in their Axis bloc.

Rank is based on score, and score is based on the overall health of the civ. It is preposterous for a higher ranked civ, who has a healthier, more advanced, higher score nation, to whine that a lower ranked civ shouldnt be able to attack them, because they neglected their military to get higher in rank while the other did not. "You can't attack me, even though my score is higher than yours, because I don't have any military!" How ridiculous! Stop tech-racing and build some military! If you cant defend your advanced nation, then you havent really built an advanced nation have you?

Looking at score keeps nations honest. Subjective notions about who is more "powerful" are irrelevant, because there is no way to objectively evaluate that. The only measure that we can look at objectively is score. Rank is based on score, not military. You use your military to protect, or increase your score. If your score is built on a house of cards (ie it is unsupported/unprotected), then it deserves to be toppled by a nation who has taken the time to build a REAL foundation, ie a military.

[Arabia2 (doe)]

Score does not include one very important element: strong allies who upgrade my obsolete soldiers for me. that was my point. I know you are paying for this upgrade by neglecting your research, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it, it's just an other strategy and probably better than mine that is trying to get the tech to build advanced troops, but without productive cities I can't build them anyway . But while my way increase my rank because techs give score yours do not (military is not included in the scoring).
This is ofc irrelevant to the subbing situation, just my opinion about that rank is far from being the perfect indicator.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Score does not include one very important element: strong allies who upgrade my obsolete soldiers for me. that was my point. I know you are paying for this upgrade by neglecting your research ... just my opinion about that rank is far from being the perfect indicator.

When you say "rank is not a perfect indicator"... A perfect indicator of what? I agree that simply looking at score does not tell the whole story about how much military a civ has, but that is my point. Score is a perfect indicator of how much military a civ SHOULD have.

If your military strength does not match your score strength, then that is your own fault, and it is a red flag to other countries that maybe you dont deserve to be ranked as highly as you are, because your military does not match your score. Then civs who have not been neglecting military can come in and use their military to increase their score, at the expense of yours, until an equilibrium is reached between your rank and you military strength. That is EXACTLY what happened to England in the first Great War. They were top ranked, with lots of cities, but they had no military. So then they got attacked until their military matched their score.

As for your point about getting upgrades from allies... you correctly point out that upgrades are paid for at the expense of tech so that is reflected in score. My score is low now, because I pay for military instead of tech. But then I have the option of using the Military to increase my score. Military is just like every other component of the game. It is a tool to enhance your score. It is just that with military spending, the score increase is indirect, because you have to decide whether to use it, while the score increase from tech, growth etc, is automatic.

And BTW when you sneer about Turkey having "strong allies who upgrade my soldiers for me", you should know that MOST of your Army AND Navy is stuff that was given to Arabia or upgraded by "strong Allies" (like Turkey for example), just before you took over the civ. Maybe you didn't realize that.

[Native America (DoE)]

I'm sick and tired of the Ottoman whinging about their lack of power, or rank, or whatever. The Ottoman Empire could wipe me out inside of 10 turns if they tried, despite the fact I am higher-ranked. The Ottoman player's constant attempts to manipulate what we decide to do in order to protect his precious situation are fast turning me off to continuation of the game. Just let's all shut the heck up about what each of us as a nation wants and simply pick an expedient solution and do it. NOW.

[Aztecs (DoE)]

I'll play on as Aztecs (but I guess that won't be long).
Will not take over China: I did my part of subbing hard situations.

I'm sick and tired of the Ottoman whinging about their lack of power, or rank, or whatever. The Ottoman Empire could wipe me out inside of 10 turns if they tried, despite the fact I am higher-ranked. The Ottoman player's constant attempts to manipulate what we decide to do in order to protect his precious situation are fast turning me off to continuation of the game. Just let's all shut the heck up about what each of us as a nation wants and simply pick an expedient solution and do it. NOW.

Hear, hear.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

I'm sick and tired of the Ottoman whinging about their lack of power, or rank, or whatever.

Yea well I'm sick and tired of players like Natives who foolishly neglect their military and then point to their lack of military as a reason to deflect attention from their high scores..."Oh we are so poor and weak... pay no attention to the fact that we are ranked 5 out of 18 Nations"... yeah right

Oh and since we are talking about what we are sick and tired of... I'm sick and tired of the Natives player constantly threatening to quit if he doesn't get his way. Just QUIT already, if my posts annoy you so much, because I can promise you, I LOVE arguing about civ, and the fact that it annoys you is just gonna make me argue longer and louder. If you dont like it, stop reading

As for the game, Aztecs say they will not take China, and will fight to the end. Manly words Aztec player So let's put China and Zulu to AI and get the show back on the road.

[England (DoE)]

Guys, cut it out. Quit fighting.

Sad to see about Aztecs/China. Who else can take them on? Japan? Mongolia? Letting them go AI does not sound like a good idea at all.