Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Russia (DoE)]

It makes no sense to make peace with a lot of demands and then think that the other party will not want to get back at you.

This is true if the past relations are clear. I have vested my trust in you twice and you have betrayed me twice. How could I handle you differently the third time?

[Russia (DoE)]

OK, I'm going to the bed, but still I dont see you really want peace. You keep talking about fighting and defending and such. If you are not surrendering, this means you are absolutely fine and you needn't waste any pity.

[France (DoE)]

Thank you for sharing. success in the new studies. Waiting.

Finally. A voice of reason.

[England (DoE)]

The more I learn about the peace negotiations the more deceptive and unreasonable Israel looks. Many peace offers were made, very fair ones considering the damage Israel did, and they rejected all of them. The peace deals were made even more sympathetic to Israel, and they rejected them too. All the while building up their forces. It seems plain that they were merely talking about peace to stall for time while they tried to fight back. Which is not good faith negotiating and Russia/Ottomans have no obligation to treat you fairly when you weren't treating them fairly.

That being said there is nothing in their offers that was unfair. I still don't like that they took your capitol, but you left them no choice. We English also have an expression: "You made your bed, now lie in it."

And with all your duplicity you dare compare your situation to that of England?

[Vikings (DoE)]

Hi dear FRIENDS/Allies/Enemies,

I am sorry but i will have to plug out from Civ IV and DOE. Being having some issues with my wife over it during the last few years lol.

I guess we guys always have to do the compromises.

Anyway I am sorry to be leaving at such an important stage for the game.

Now many of you know me very well, you know that I am a loyal ally/friend in each game i play:

I ask that either France or Germany subs for my civ, I want the vikings to continue to be part of the ACE alliance, thus i want a ACE member to continue to sub for me, use Money/Units all i own to help the ACE. If i had continued to play i would help/contribute/assist with all i can my allies.

I want all Vikings matters to be decided by my alliance. I put my civ's faith into their hands.


This game was a big part of me

Many of you will understand my actions I hope.

[Israel (DoE)]

@England:
peace offers:
* made to Israel
1. give up Ekron to Turkey (accepted by Israel)
2. give up Sidon to Mali (accepted and done by Israel)
3. give about 6000 gold and Ekron (refused)

*made by ISrael
4. Israel becomes a vasal to Russia (refused by Russia)
5. give about 3000 gold (refused by Russia)
6. give Bethlehem up (refused by Turks/Russia)

So there were 6 possible peace suggestions, 5 were acceptable to Israel, 1 was acceptable to Russia/Turkey.
That one offer received a counter offer.
All 6 offers were of course more complicated then described above but this describes more or less the nature of the 6 offers.
So England, what you say just makes no sense at all.

Especially if you add to that that when that 6000 gpt offer was made Israel didn't even know yet that Mali and Russia were about to attack him as well.

Many peace offers were made, very fair ones considering the damage Israel did

Worst nonsense ever.
Israel's action did not more then end the life of like 20 units.
Your view of what is 'very fair' is absurd like always.
Especially if you consider that the Turks took Israel's holy city and already razed Ekron and took Hebron after we killed their 20 units.
And made peace after that which they broke immediately.

*sigh* your bias is bigger then the universe, as always.

[Russia (DoE)]

Sorry to hear this, Viking. You proved to be worthy foe.

Wives, what we can do... I even teach mine to play civ and this worked for quite long time.

But hey, civ is far better than being football fan for example. I asked my wife to look at it as my hobby. Way to release the steam.

[Israel (DoE)]

@Russia:
In the past we have had civs going zealoat after losing 1 city, they refused to talk and just started to 'wage war forever'.
Then the 'agressor' had no option but continueing the war. That's what the 'reasonable' refers to.
Israel was never a zealoat civ like this. We always continued to talk and made offers for peace and counter offers.

Your point is that the offers you made were good and you still try to convince me that the were.
The thing is that I honestly thought that they weren't good enough for me.
Negotiation comes from two sides, what is acceptable for two sides. You asked way too much from me.
I really wanted peace.

I cannot remember any situation in the history of diplogaming where any civ paid 6000 gold after losing the war already and losing 1,5 cities.

(the numbers you give are from the end of WW1, after WW2 Germany got money from the USA as a matter of fact, marshall help)

When I refer to your 'paranoia' I mean that everything was always explained into the negative by you.
You didn't believe that 400gpt was the most money I could make
you didn't believe that I could really upgrade those canons
you didn't believe I had real peace intentions b/c I was upgrading catapults
you kept insisting that Israel was a backstabbing nation (ignoring the entire Turkey/Israel conflict since the razing of Jerusalem).

When I was negotiating you gave me one offer (6000 gold) insisting that I couldn't be trusted and did not really want peace anyway.
That I did not accept that one offer doesn't mean that I was stubborn. And that's what the rule refers to.

I'd even bet that there would be no other player in any of the diplogames that would even continue from this point or would not have left the game earlier already.

Can you now please stop saying how wrong I am and just say: "Ok, we indeed went over the top here"
I do not ask any reloads or anything else. I just point to the obvious. What happened to Israel is just way over the top. First with the razing of Jerusalem, now this.

[Germany (DoE)]

and

I guess we've all been there and all of us judge things differently... I really respect those that hang on in there and certainly understand those that need to leave for RL or whatever reasons...

[Russia (DoE)]

Continuing to twist the things to your liking isnt making any good. Even the facts from the history you deny.

Check this out - those sums are exactly after the WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Treaties,_1947

Anyway, I will come later in the day to play my turn, I leave the townfor the only free day in the week for me . I am a bit sad by Vikings leaving and dont feel like playing around with hypothetical terms right at this point. See- they have real excuse for leaving the game, what you suggest that others would have leaved the game if at your place, just dont make sense. Mongolia is still playing, England is still playing, Turkey is still playing, India is still playing.

Yes, I admit your situation is dire, but you are not doing it any better. I said it many times, will say it once again: If I felt you truly wanted to befriend me, the technical details wont matter any more. I have tons of examples from the real history.

But we will argue later.

[Germany (DoE)]

I have zero time to participate in any arguments but I do encourage folks to try to stay in the game if at all possible. Of course RL and health comes first.

[Israel (DoE)]

Yes, no need for the Vikings to leave.
I am just continueing the game, no pause needed, no delay or anything.
Just discussing here how far diplogaming should go in terms of the strong vs the weak.

[Germany (DoE)]

Well, I think a post-mortem of this game is crucial when the game is over and for the health of diplo gaming; plus India's idea for sharing knowledge (sorry I have not responded to this yet but best after the game I think and I busy like hell now)

We need to look at the RULES v GOOD FORM v EXCITING WARS IN DIPLO.

* DA hurt real bad (could have been Neander - it was a knife edge that the chose to attack the DA and not Neander)
* Israel hurt real bad
* Many less experienced players not really keeping up with the power players
* Mongolia hurt very badly early on
* PLUS the problem of players leaving without saying and not leaving instructions or whether they need a sub etc etc (Vikings left a clear brief so that is good on them) - the host shouldn't have to monitor every civ in this regard.

Just a few quick thoughts for later on... but basically we should all feel good is the thing I've learnt (regardless of some losses) and clearly that is not the case here.

[Russia (DoE)]

Oh, come on! It is not even "Strong vs the Weak!" You had all the force you needed to defeat us! You are part of the strongest military group on the Earth! I start to think the Turks are right and you are just making noise and propaganda to make people feel sympathy for you!

You say that what was done to England was over the top. And yet you are supporting invariably the Vikings and the French who did this to them. Not to mention the French razed all the Turkish cities which they captured without any word on that. They was driven out from whole CONTINENT!

And when asked to stop support them, you stall us with negotiations and promisses, call them cowards and evil, but in secret you are still cooperating with them and risking your whole nation on their behalf!!! Where is the diplo here? What kind of diplomacy is this? How you expect us to treat you and your intentions?

[Russia (DoE)]

Well, I think a post-mortem of this game is crucial when the game is over and for the health of diplo gaming; plus India's idea for sharing knowledge

Yes, it is brilliant idea, absolutely needed and I will enjoy it as the cherry on top of the cake.

but basically we should all feel good is the thing I've learnt (regardless of some losses) and clearly that is not the case here.

Yes, the Israeli are already starting making me wonder why is all this about. I agree this is just a game, and it is supposedly to be played more in friendly spirit instead of pure competitive one, but the game have some logic too. It SHOULD have logic. For me, I've been acting all in the logic and spirit of the game. Yes, you might say I am looking only from my POV, but honestly, I try to look from your POV too and cant see something to make me like your stance IC.

OOC, I know what is to be defeated and I can blame you for your feelings (despite being somewhat irrational, as your situation is direct consequence of some very straight-forwarded decissions you made yourself.)