Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Setup Thread]

[OzzyKP]

I have been opposed to a world map from the start as it invariably gives African/American Civs a massive advantage. Asian Civs given a reasonable chance but European very poor odds. To pack 5 in there is little short of sadistic!

The Map will need to be truly Gigantic and will also have to be a masterpiece for this to succeed.

That's precisely why it is so important to stagger players by skill. Over the last few games I have subbed for a lot of different players, and (no offense to anyone) we have plenty of players who could take the lushest start in any map and still struggle with it. But the map has been tweaked for balance, like most maps I work on (and ones Rhye creates) it truly is a masterpiece.

[Exploit]

tier 2:

- Exploit (I sense that from his writings he should be in tier 1 - sounds like another mzprox to me!)

The meek shall inherit the earth (or at least the best portions of it in this game) however no one has ever accused me of being meek. I have no problems playing with the tier 1 players. I merely gave my best guess without having played with most of these players before (unless they used different names then being used on this forum).

[Rempedaalops]

That's precisely why it is so important to stagger players by skill. Over the last few games I have subbed for a lot of different players, and (no offense to anyone) we have plenty of players who could take the lushest start in any map and still struggle with it. But the map has been tweaked for balance, like most maps I work on (and ones Rhye creates) it truly is a masterpiece.

Can't wait to play on the map

[The Priest]

But the map has been tweaked for balance, like most maps I work on (and ones Rhye creates) it truly is a masterpiece.

Your maps certainly always get a big thumbs up from me.

[Pinchak]

Breaking players into "tiers" is simply a mechinism for the self appointed "top players" to secure their place as top players.

If they lose badly, they can blame the handicap. If they win they can brag win dispite a handicap. Maybe if they win dispite a handicap we can make a new catagory for them... like tier uber, or living deity. At that level they will be forced to start off with only a warrior... no settler, no worker. They will however STILL pull it off because they are just that damn good!

Rank me tier 3 if that is the lowest. I want every advantage I can get.

[OzzyKP]

Wow, a negative comment from Pin, I totally didn't expect that.

[Robert]

Glad you're in, Pinchak!
That means we have 17 players now.

Now we had this debate, it may be time to vote.
Let's ignore the votes you mailed to me, and just vote here again after reading the debate.

All please vote for the following questions:

1. Do we spread civs over the globe using 'tiers', or fully anonymous in a random way?
a. use tiers ('best' players packed in Europe, 'least good' players in America, etc.)
b. no, full random anonymous

Now we know it's going to be an Earth map, maybe it changes our vote on 'unexplored new worlds'. Please all vote:
2. Must America be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
a. Settle it straight away
b. Colonize it later

3. Must Australia be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
a. Settle it straight away
b. Colonize it later

4. Unit gifting has caused some debates in the past, how do we handle it?
a. No unit gifting at all
b. Allow unit gifting but report all gifts somehow
c. Allow unit gifting

5. If the total vote results of question 4 ends in a 'win' for answer 'b', then how do we organise this?
a. rename gifted units to place the orignal owner in it's name, like: "Spearman (Rome)"
b. thread report
c. some webform

6. Turn timer: Some have commented in their vote that they prefer something between option 'a' and option 'b', and to not make things impossible for the option b, c and d, I suggest:
Let's put the turn timer like this:
1. first 150 hours: 8 hours / turn
2. turn 150-300: 14 hours / turn
3. from turn 300 on: 16 hours / turn

Do you agree:
a. Yes
b. No, use the turn-timer option we voted for in the last vote

[The Priest]

Just to give some background to question 4. I mentioned this to RP in an email:

I propose that all gifts of units (of whatever type) have to be reported immediately in a suitable online forum. There are no restrictions on gifts and they can be part of whatever complicated deals of blackmail that you want, and none of that needs reporting (though might make good stories). However, every time you click the 'gift' button in-game you must report what was gifted and to whom immediately.

The purpose of this is not to restrict anything, but to ensure that when we are all weighing up balance and appropriateness in a diplo game we aren't deceived. e.g. many of us would think that small nation A attacking small nation b is perfectly appropriate, but massive nation C attacking small nation B isn't (and might call for response from other nations etc.). However currently massive nation C can gift large amounts of advanced troops to A, which A then uses to attack (I did it myself in BtP). It still looks like small nation against small nation, but it isn't. This rule doesn't stop anything, but just means everyone would know small A is acting really as a proxy for large C, and people can then react as they wish.

And lets be honest, this sort of military support (or emigation in the case of workers/settlers) would never be secret in the real world. During the cold war everyone knew who was getting arms from the USA or soviets. Lets get it public and people might as well also write it up in stories etc. rather than as at the moment everyone having an incentive to keep it secret.

[Black Knight 427]

1. Do we spread civs over the globe using 'tiers', or fully anonymous in a random way?

b. no, full random anonymous

Now we know it's going to be an Earth map, maybe it changes our vote on 'unexplored new worlds'. Please all vote:
2. Must America be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
a. Settle it straight away

3. Must Australia be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?

b. Colonize it later

4. Unit gifting has caused some debates in the past, how do we handle it?
a. No unit gifting at all

5. If the total vote results of question 4 ends in a 'win' for answer 'b', then how do we organise this?
a. rename gifted units to place the orignal owner in it's name, like: "Spearman (Rome)"

6. Turn timer: Some have commented in their vote that they prefer something between option 'a' and option 'b', and to not make things impossible for the option b, c and d, I suggest:
Let's put the turn timer like this:
1. first 150 hours: 8 hours / turn
2. turn 150-300: 14 hours / turn
3. from turn 300 on: 16 hours / turn

Do you agree:
a. Yes

[Rempedaalops]

1. Do we spread civs over the globe using 'tiers', or fully anonymous in a random way?
a. use tiers ('best' players packed in Europe, 'least good' players in America, etc.)


Now we know it's going to be an Earth map, maybe it changes our vote on 'unexplored new worlds'. Please all vote:
2. Must America be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
a. Settle it straight away


3. Must Australia be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
a. Settle it straight away


4. Unit gifting has caused some debates in the past, how do we handle it?
b. Allow unit gifting but report all gifts somehow


5. If the total vote results of question 4 ends in a 'win' for answer 'b', then how do we organise this?
a. rename gifted units to place the orignal owner in it's name, like: "Spearman (Rome)"


6. Turn timer: Some have commented in their vote that they prefer something between option 'a' and option 'b', and to not make things impossible for the option b, c and d, I suggest:
Let's put the turn timer like this:
1. first 150 hours: 8 hours / turn
2. turn 150-300: 14 hours / turn
3. from turn 300 on: 16 hours / turn

Do you agree:
a. Yes

[St Jon]

I believe I have already voted but let me qualify a few things.


1. Do we spread civs over the globe using 'tiers', or fully anonymous in a random way?
a. use tiers ('best' players packed in Europe, 'least good' players in America, etc.)
b. no, full random anonymous

I believe I stated fully anonymous before. I still regard this as correct but if we are to have a compacted Europe then why not just pre-determine the Civs that are available and allow free choice on a first come first served basis. If someone reckons that they are brilliant then let them pick England voluntarily rather than just making an arbitrary decision on their behalf.

Putting 3 of the selected 5 in Tier 1 is, I think, ridiculous in a Diplo-Game as in neither of the 2 games I have played have they looked to have had a cat in hell's chance of winning either in-game or votes. Great at BtS maybe but not in the same league as you for stories or artwork.

Now we know it's going to be an Earth map, maybe it changes our vote on 'unexplored new worlds'. Please all vote:
2. Must America be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
a. Settle it straight away
b. Colonize it later

I stick with option A.

3. Must Australia be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
a. Settle it straight away
b. Colonize it later

I stick with option A and would like to see an Aborigine Civ based on one of the unused African/S.American Civs.

4. Unit gifting has caused some debates in the past, how do we handle it?
a. No unit gifting at all
b. Allow unit gifting but report all gifts somehow
c. Allow unit gifting

I stick with option A but reckon that the only alternative is option C. I disagree with Priest over this as the stories are largely for entertainment and propaganda whilst the real diplomacy goes on behind closed doors. If 'gifting' is allowed then it must be down to you to have the spies in place to spot just how much stronger your weak neighbour has become overnight.

5. If the total vote results of question 4 ends in a 'win' for answer 'b', then how do we organise this?
a. rename gifted units to place the orignal owner in it's name, like: "Spearman (Rome)"
b. thread report
c. some webform

I think I answered in Q.4

6. Turn timer: Some have commented in their vote that they prefer something between option 'a' and option 'b', and to not make things impossible for the option b, c and d, I suggest:
Let's put the turn timer like this:
1. first 150 hours: 8 hours / turn
2. turn 150-300: 14 hours / turn
3. from turn 300 on: 16 hours / turn

Do you agree:
a. Yes
b. No, use the turn-timer option we voted for in the last vote

Unchanged Opt B

[OzzyKP]

I believe I have already voted but let me qualify a few things.


1. Do we spread civs over the globe using 'tiers', or fully anonymous in a random way?
a. use tiers ('best' players packed in Europe, 'least good' players in America, etc.)
b. no, full random anonymous

I believe I stated fully anonymous before. I still regard this as correct but if we are to have a compacted Europe then why not just pre-determine the Civs that are available and allow free choice on a first come first served basis. If someone reckons that they are brilliant then let them pick England voluntarily rather than just making an arbitrary decision on their behalf.

Putting 3 of the selected 5 in Tier 1 is, I think, ridiculous in a Diplo-Game as in neither of the 2 games I have played have they looked to have had a cat in hell's chance of winning either in-game or votes. Great at BtS maybe but not in the same league as you for stories or artwork.

Plenty of the best players have zero interest in handicapping themselves and, if given a choice, would pick the easiest possible start position for themselves. Then less skilled players would be stuck in Europe, and end up a runt civ like the Celts in DoD for the rest of the game. The goal here is balance, and countless diplogames over the last few years have proven without question that the only way to even attempt to achieve balance (i.e. a fun, competitive game for everyone) is to tweak things deliberately.

[Dubhghlas]

1. Do we spread civs over the globe using 'tiers', or fully anonymous in a random way?
a. use tiers ('best' players packed in Europe, 'least good' players in America, etc.)


Now we know it's going to be an Earth map, maybe it changes our vote on 'unexplored new worlds'. Please all vote:
2. Must America be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
a. Settle it straight away


3. Must Australia be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
a. Settle it straight away

4. Unit gifting has caused some debates in the past, how do we handle it?

b. Allow unit gifting but report all gifts somehow


5. If the total vote results of question 4 ends in a 'win' for answer 'b', then how do we organise this?
a. rename gifted units to place the orignal owner in it's name, like: "Spearman (Rome)"

6. Turn timer: Some have commented in their vote that they prefer something between option 'a' and option 'b', and to not make things impossible for the option b, c and d, I suggest:
Let's put the turn timer like this:
1. first 150 hours: 8 hours / turn
2. turn 150-300: 14 hours / turn
3. from turn 300 on: 16 hours / turn

Do you agree:

b. No, use the turn-timer option we voted for in the last vote

[OzzyKP]

The map is designed for having Australia free, so it would mess things up if we had to put someone there from the beginning. Please select "colonize it later" for question 3. Several of these items we really shouldn't be voting on, they are necessary for the map.




1. Do we spread civs over the globe using 'tiers', or fully anonymous in a random way?
a. use tiers ('best' players packed in Europe, 'least good' players in America, etc.) VERY important to have this

Now we know it's going to be an Earth map, maybe it changes our vote on 'unexplored new worlds'. Please all vote:
2. Must America be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
a. Settle it straight away

3. Must Australia be settled from the beginning, or must it be an 'unexplored new world' to be colonized later?
b. Colonize it later This is needed for the map to work.

4. Unit gifting has caused some debates in the past, how do we handle it?
b. Allow unit gifting but report all gifts somehow

5. If the total vote results of question 4 ends in a 'win' for answer 'b', then how do we organise this?
I don't care, I abstain.

6. Turn timer: Some have commented in their vote that they prefer something between option 'a' and option 'b', and to not make things impossible for the option b, c and d, I suggest:
Let's put the turn timer like this:
1. first 150 hours: 8 hours / turn
2. turn 150-300: 14 hours / turn
3. from turn 300 on: 16 hours / turn

Do you agree:
a. Yes

[Robert]

Ozzy has a point, if you chose for the 'tiers', then please don't let Australia be settled immediately

I suggest that we close this vote in 48 hours.