Interesting Strategy

[Rasputin]

learned something new.

dont bother researching in a MP game, just make a good friend and send them your Obsolete units and pay them gold to upgrade them to the latest and greatest.

New to me but probalby used by all others.



interesting way around the problem of Tech trading limitations used in some games.

Some people are so damn clever in finding loopholes......

[Ming]

If it is a team style game, such is life... if it's in a free for all style game, it sucks if you are the victim

[Pinchak]

Better yet... get 3 players together for this one...

Player A runs full espionage on Player B. Player B runs full espionage on Player C. Player C runs full espionage on player A.

Requires alot of trust, but you can steal each others tech dirt cheap.

[Rasputin]

wow you guys so devious LOL

[St Jon]

learned something new.

dont bother researching in a MP game, just make a good friend and send them your Obsolete units and pay them gold to upgrade them to the latest and greatest.

New to me but probalby used by all others.



interesting way around the problem of Tech trading limitations used in some games.

Some people are so damn clever in finding loopholes......

This was done to an excessive extent in BtP and I think it should be banned. It may be normal practise in the 'real world' to buy advanced munitions but in a game it distorts everything. You can even swap cities to get improvements built which don't stop working when you get the city back. Makes it all stupid - you do all research and I all gold and build cheapo quickie units which you can upgrade for me. Build huge armies very quick this way but it's really a loophole in the game mechanics.

Same goes for Tech Trades. Even with a 15 voucher system you can just arrange an early game, even pre-game, pact to only swap with 1 person and plan your research lines to avoid conflicts. Early game this can be a real killer, I know as I have done it in CtP, as with 30 Techs flying back and forth 2 players can soon be out of sight of the rest. It is not cheating but it really does distort things and ensures far more early game Wonders get grabbed by 2 acting as a team than ever could be by 2 acting alone.

[Toni]

I agree Jon,

I as well have used this tech/trade buddy system - it really can propel you and that person into the tech race. I think maybe we should place a rule that limits how much techs you can trade with someone.

[Robert]

Or perhaps a no tech trading rule at all.

Regarding espionage, if one invensts in espionage, he invests less in science, so I wonder if it helps a lot.

The upgrading is indeed perhaps something we should look at.

[Pitboss Japan]

Sending units for upgrade i dont see as a big problem- now gifting cities temporary to make the upgrade there is exploit-ish. I'd ban this.
Espionage between friends also could be an exploit-especially if it's well prepared. It's possible to steal techs for 10% cost or maybe less

[St Jon]

You're still posting as Japan!

I disagree. I think mass upgrades is wrong as happened in BtP where Spain was hit by Khmer upgraded Modern Armour by half of Meduia! What chance did they have when it was Khmer's war against Portugal that was the motive, as Spain was Portugal's friend, yet Khmer never declared war itself but got others to do the job for them. HRE/Celts couldn't even build normal Tanks! Very unfair and you had what should have been an even contest turned into a walkover.

[OzzyKP]

First of all, Celts/HRE/Metalheads only had like 4-5 modern tanks, and that was only after Portugal & Rome (the two most powerful nations on the planet) had sent stacks of units over to Spain. Initially there were zero Khmer units involved, but Rome/Portugal unbalanced things. Seems quite reasonable for Khmer to try and balance things again.

I think it would be terribly unwise to just ban gifting units. There are countless times in this game where units were gifted between players for various reasons and uses.

Plus, as Korea showed, there can be risks to gifting units. So as long as you accept the possibility of a double-cross, I don't see the problem with either gifting or upgrading units.

[Robert]

Gifting units should imho stay possible.
I'm not against banning upgrading units for other players.

[St Jon]

The problem I see is where do you stop?

There is nothing 'wrong' in gifting a city or units - sometimes you have no choice - but it can be used to crushing advantage.

A trick I pulled in an old pbem was to get a quiet and relatively weak ally to gift me some cities along an enemies' border - on a different continent - as well as a number of units. The units were all upgraded and additional ones airlifted in. Out of the blue my enemy had an entire panzer-corps sitting on a weakly defended border and his capitol was gone inside inside a few turns! My ally got a stack of units and cities as a reward and I had utterly obliterated my most powerful rival at small cost. It was legal but was it right?

In BtP Rome lent me units for Persia war. I lent Rome units for Maya war but neither of us gave each other anything, all were returned, and nothing that we could not have built ourselves was employed under false colours. Problem comes when units need to be returned and one party can no longer build the older unit that has been lost. What do I give Rome back for trebuchet when I can only now build cannon and how does Rome replace Russian galleons and riflemen that she no longer possesses? We both want our units back so you have no choice but to give newer ones. It is a very fine line here.

When you just ignore normal science altogether with mass upgrade of units it makes a mockery of the entire thing. Airships to jets skips 70+ turns of research and removes the need for much beyond Industrialisation to make it cost effective. Even before that the gold provider can have reduced science to a snail's pace and also focused a fair bit of concentrated espionage against a single opponent for cheap tech-raids as a bonus.

If city-swapping for new buildings is wrong then was it right that I gave Rome a city of mine to build an off-shore platform as I lacked Plastics? I got the city back and the platform worked fine so Russia had an independent oil supply.

I think Pinchak's espionage plan would work very well as you would not have to increase espionage by much just focus entirely on 1 target leaving all others as 0%. You could make that illegal if you wish but you could never enforce it unless the host were to take regular snap-shots of everyone's turns. There would be more fuss about the host looking at other people's espionage allocations than about anything else.

There are so many very grey areas here and some you can never hope to police. The ones that you can are buddy-tech trades - either no tech trades at all, my preferred option, or limit to trades between individuals as Toni suggests. Purchased upgrades are very easy to spot. City-swaps for tactical or infrastructure gain, harder to spot if only for infrastructure, but still possible.

[Rasputin]

wow so many ways of playing that dont necessarily involve being better at the game...

[St Jon]

It's never just been a matter of being a brilliant general.

[Rasputin]

Apparently !!!