Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread VI]

[OzzyKP]

Ah but annihilation is banned! Remember 'measured war'? The only reason people would accept capitulation is because of a threat of 'non-measured war'. But since that is a threat that cannot be made (or shouldn't be), why would anyone capitulate. Don't get me wrong - it isn't banned, and you haven't done anything wrong in getting nations to capitulate, but I think we should ban it in future. My insistance over spain was no capitulation, accept peace-time vassalage but don't capitulate. Which is what has happened - peace then (non-permanent) vassalage (I am very happy to believe that this was always Ozzy's intention).

Yea, I had no intention for him to capitulate.

(And before anyone asks, yes Ozzy's entry did do nasty things to my computer! My problem completely - other comp. in for repair - Ozzy has to be able to log in when he wants not worry about my comp. I can't get back now, will play this evening).

Ah crap, I was worried about that. I didn't check CivStats before I logged in. Had I noticed you were logged in I wouldn't have gone in. Sorry.

[Pitboss Spain]

Yea, I had no intention for him to capitulate.
(

I offered vassalage instead of capitulation, didn't I? In character I must insist on calling it capitulation though

[Pitboss Portugal]

I just want to say one big thank you to the new Mayan and Spanish players. You guys seem to just perfectly fit in our game style, I love your stories and willingness to pick from the dust those two civs.

P.S Maya great job with the game pics!!

A GREAT Diplo addition you two are

[Robert]

Absolutely!!!!!

Regarding vassalage or capitulation, the disadvantage of vassalage is that the vassal can break vassalage ANY TIME (after 10 turns). Which effectually means that the master still can't be sure. In fact he pays extra maintenance all the time, gives armies and freebies, but in the end he may still be stabbed in his back by his vassal. So what's the point?

Why is it bad to be a vassal permanently? I mean, we all know that Spain was never going to win this game anyway. It's a permanent loss. Why not bring in a new element by making him a permanent vassal of the Metalheads? Permanent is not bad.

[OzzyKP]

Well I think the potential to backstab your master is always a good thing.

From the vassal's perspective at least... no one wants to give up choices. I don't have any problem with people choosing to capitulate, the Funglish did, it should be an option on the table. But if I were in that position, I'm sure I'd never want to capitulate.

[Robert]

The alternative is that the 'master' will grab more cities to be sure that his enemy will ever be a treat to him again.

These are the options:
A. civ 1 capitulates to civ 2 and keeps 15 cities
B. civ 2 continues the war till civ 1 has only 10 cities

Compare it with Japan/Sparta and Rome/Russia.
Sparta gives many armies to Japan, Sparta is not in Piercia, Japan fights it's own war.
Rome fights this war self. No fun or responsibilities for Russia. And Rome is right, what if Rome gives 30 armies to Russia and Russia betrays Rome?
I've had that once with Korea, I learned my lesson.

You guys only look at the downside, 'permanent'.
But the alternative is much more terrible.

[OzzyKP]

True.

[Pitboss Rome]

There is no lie at all. Japanese soldiers: riflemen and cannons. Spartan forces: tanks and machineguns. maybe i should had write that by spartan troops i meant spartan troops under japanese command, but didnt think much of it.. ( and i got 8 tanks altogether, but that's just details)

lol fair enough, just the fact that you have twice as many tanks in theatre as the Romans and Russians put together puts a different spin on the 'woe is me small country attacked my nasty big person' line

[Robert]

Keep the war propaganda inside the story thread guys
And never let the facts (screenshots of statistics, etc.) spoil a good story Believe me, or otherwise I'll start producing photoshopped statistic screenshots 8)

[St Jon]

We are agree on this.

But here is an other matter (somewhat connected to that): sometimes i feel that we go too far with the propaganda
for example:
one post pictures that the invaders totaly destroyed the captured city massacred every one
the other post a picture and story that the citizens welcomed the liberators with flowers...

I think it's not the best for the stroy thread to have these totally different points of view

and back to Piercia:
one say that the pedofil, zoofil, sadist, murderer ( ) japanese captured piercia and killing the people for joy. So he comes to liberate

the other (me) say that the union was a peacfull and free-will decision and try to defend himself

There is no truth here but versions of the story and i think it's unfortunate that they are this far from each other, but maybe I'm the only one who disturbed by this a bit

If you look back at the Story Posts Russia has been entirely consistent in its' attitude toward Japan. These have been wholly hostile and will remain so until the political situation changes radically. Look at the history of War in Europe and you will find that the Czech opinion of Germany was rather different from the Slovak one. We all lie in our press statements!

I cannot deny that if you look at the Org Thread my OOC attitude toward the previous Jap Player was equally hostile. I detested the little wimp crying about 'being last' when it was merely down to bad play! I bitterly opposed the Piercia settlement, regardless of the cheating later discovered, and wish I had faced him rather than you as there would now be no Japan on the continent for he was a worthless opponent.

______________

On the other subjects being discussed.

If you take over a Civ mid-game then you get what you are given and have to accept it. Russia and Japan were dumps suffering from very poor starts and dreadful mismanagement for a long period. I think we have both done a very good job of turning round hopeless causes so that we can genuinely take part in the game. Both were worse off than Piercia itself and we should be pleased with our efforts. Spain is still better off, maybe not on the PowerGraph, than either of us. Maya took the only offer on the table with an ongoing war between Rome and Greece so who could have blamed them?

A war between Russia and Japan is fair for Russia has a hugely better economy and production base but Japan has much better Tech and greatly shorter supply lines. With Greek Tanks and Infantry the whole balance changes so we then have Rome involved. This is a Diplo-Game and that is POLITICS!

As for Lies and Propaganda; who will ever know what I took Pierced Hill with and against what? Believe me or believe you, that's not our choice, but I will stick to my story and you may stick to your's.

Capitulation. I believe this must be banned as it distorts the game very badly. The only way Japan can be free again is if Greece is utterlly destroyed - no bad thing - but is otherwise a servant forever. That is not a good thing.

____________

I may have described Japan as Murderers, Butchers and Vile Repressors. I may have accused Greece of being an Incestuous Zoophile with a passion for Fish but I have NEVER EVER described anyone, even in jest, as a Paedophile and I do require that you retract that accusation!

[Robert]

Capitulation. I believe this must be banned as it distorts the game very badly. The only way Japan can be free again is if Greece is utterlly destroyed - no bad thing - but is otherwise a servant forever. That is not a good thing.

You did not read my posts regarding capitulations, did you

[St Jon]

Capitulation. I believe this must be banned as it distorts the game very badly. The only way Japan can be free again is if Greece is utterlly destroyed - no bad thing - but is otherwise a servant forever. That is not a good thing.

You did not read my posts regarding capitulations, did you

Yes I did and I disagree with you.

[St Jon]

@Japan. I am actually very serious about you claiming that I called anyone a Paedophile and either there will be an apology or I request that the Post be deleted! It is deeply offensive and far worse than me calling you a 'See You Next Tuesday'!

[deity]

Just a heads up, we've just decided on a break at home. We head off on Tuesday but no laptop atm. Subs are in place.

Good luck all

[Robert]

Yes I did and I disagree with you.

No, I wasn't refering to the stuff you can either agree or disagree with, but about the two ways to end a capitulation-vassalage.