New diplo game: big discussion needed

[mzprox]

@FF: sorry but I'm getting a bit annoyed here, because it seems you are totally ignoring what I'm saying and still making it up as it was some evil move by my part.

"The moment I moved all but a single Musketeer and Archer left Owari"

After you moved your army from Owari, my troops left Owari too-This is what i should have done in my next turn, but I'd have never left with those troops while your army next to my city.

"If Owari had only had a single Musketman and an Archer I could have taken the City for little or no loss"

But Owari had 5 defenders when you made your turn...You really expected that after reaload i will empty my city before you remove your forces from there?- i did that only because your troops had moved to an other city.

"The excuse given was that they had been there in error and the move was a correction"

please quote me on that.. I've explained many times what happened, and i have never said anything like this..

Anyway.. this might be the best example why reload should be made asap.. we could have paused the game in the same turn as this happened and that would have fixed everything, at least we agree on this

[The Capo]

We aren't really here to argue about things that happened. The only purpose to bring them up is in an anecdotal capacity. Whether or not FF's version of events was entirely accurate the main point exists, and you agree; an automatic pause would have helped the situation. So ultimately we are making progress here. I think the biggest issue now is how an issue is resolved.

Let's say for instance I double-moved against FF; it is realized and paused. Let's say I challenge it, how do we resolve the issue? So far Cyber has suggested a hierarchy of decision-makers (which I personally disagree with), others have suggested independent judges. I think a general consensus should be taken, if a double move is shown to have occured a reload is in order and I should probably be put on notice that if I were to double-move again I would suffer some injunction or penalty. Possibly be booted from the game depending on how premeditated it appeared. Once we clear this up I think we might be ready to start actually putting rules down in text.

[St Jon]

mzprox,

The purpose of my post was, as Capo says, not to rake up old ground but to illustrate why the 'Pause first' policy is the only way to make the game really work. I should never have had to kick up such a fuss 'on-thread' with ever harsher posts being exchanged and close to personal insult just to get a re-load. That is exactly the kind of situation that turns people right off the game and can cause bad-blood to linger.

I didn't like what I saw and said so. That should have been enough for the game to have been paused and my concerns addressed. This could, and should, have been done in a calm and civilised manner and the rights and wrongs sorted out. It would not have taken long but the game continued and I was not prepared then to compromise on a re-load as I had already seen how letting the clock tick can make it impossible to correct a situation. I still should not have had to fight for the re-load and the resentment that I felt over the reluctance to do one only made me more suspicious of the motives behind it.

As it is, I did get my re-load eventually and it's all water under the bridge now, but it still should never have been allowed to get that far. We also have now got a very important Rule - one that must be incorporated in any new rule set - regarding simultaneous movement in wartime and warring players not being allowed to login and do nothing until their opponent has to likewise enter the game allowing immediate reactive movement which is not even permitted in TCP/IP.

[Heraclitus]

I think a pitboss game with some kind of major mod would be fun. Like the Star Trek or Mars total conversion one.

[St Jon]

Any idea of a time-scale for the start of this new game?

Drafting Rules and settings etc?

I don't think think a new game is likely to conflict with any other now and it would be really good to start a game from fresh with a good and consistent Rule set and a fair Map.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Hi guys. This is certainly a topic I want to be involved in. May I just say that the only reason I haven't been writing stories in the BtP game is because-as a sub-I missed a HUGE CHUNK of the entire storyline. Not only does this make it difficult for me to pick up on the story so far, but it also means I feel very little connection to my empire. If I can start the next game from the very beginning, I can assure you that you will get regular stories from me .

Aussie.

[deity]

The Deitian Empire strikes back

Be great to have you back on board Aussie (Marcus) and at least the Oldonians have a sub so thanks for that.

My take on the next big diplo game is that the actual players selected is more important than the rules.

Rules should be absolutely minimalist using the game pause in a crisis.

I can't believe Pinchak is the Maya. I was SO sure he was the HRE and I think Pinchak is a cool addition to the genre along with map making skills.

But it was the Maya who started out with a very negative attitude about vets and in particular me - deity. He accussed me of being Korea and then everyone got in on the deity bashing band wagon. I seriously thought the Maya must have been Dangime. We are old foes but if it was him we would have easly worked things out. We go way back - 1999.

But if Pinchak is Maya I can't see how he got such a negative attirtude towards me. We've only played in HOTW12 together before this.

I'm sorry to say this Pinchak but in selecting players for the next diplo I personally can't see you in it Most of the poor attitude in BTP and most of the crisis revolve around you. Now, this is in one way a good thing in game because you add SO MUCH energy and controversy to the story line; BUT to go around constantly and instantaneously accusing people of being cheats and shooting your mouth off and Cyber bashing and deity bashing is all a bit much.

I'm very disappointed in all this and is sucking the current game dry. Sure, Cyber made mistakes too but he is a decent person who tried to calmly steer the game in a balanced direction. Under pressure of being called a cheat he did make some poor judgements but nothing upsets me more than when someone calls me a cheat - it clouds your thinking and is very upsetting for people of high integrity.

Was it always you that played the Maya in BTP, Pinchak?

I think we can declare our hands now since anon has collapsed.

[deity]

Sorry, but I just had to make that post.

Anyway, Moving forward I suggest:

If Cyber is playing he is clearly an outstanding host and pitboss epic speed is the only way to go.

12 players max. If a consensus prefers a nominated player not play then they are out. A bit tricky with new Polly logins but working with the current knowns would be best - a selection from Cyber, ozzy, Toni, deity, Marcus (Aussie Lurker), The Priest, Capo, Pitboss Celts (*?), Pitboss America (*?), lz, Rasputin, Heraclitoris, Pitboss Natives (*?), Pitboss Japan (*?), Classical_Hero, Pitboss HRE (*?), Pitboss Khmer (*?), Beta, Trev, Friendly Fire

*? = don't know who they are

Players who probably aren't suited to diplo games:

Whiplash
Pinchak
Some of the Pitboss Japan players

tbc

[St Jon]

FYI. The Jap Player who cheated was Rising Sun formerly known as Danny P.O. Cyber said the original Jap Player who cheated was kicked off the Forum completely. You have double named at least 1, I think 2, people.

[Robert]

Rising Sun apologized. I think everybody deserves a 2nd chance.

I don't think that the 18-players ever was a problem in this game.
12 players is fine with me, but if 12+ players want to participate I'd say that's fine.

I got a pm from GLohitia, he may want to join future games again!
He's following our BtP game as well! Reading our stories and such, which is pretty cool!

[St Jon]

Rising Sun apologized. I think everybody deserves a 2nd chance.

I don't think that the 18-players ever was a problem in this game.
12 players is fine with me, but if 12+ players want to participate I'd say that's fine.

I got a pm from GLohitia, he may want to join future games again!
He's following our BtP game as well! Reading our stories and such, which is pretty cool!

I agree on both points. Real need is for the Map to be fair, 12 or 18 Players, so you don't get people stuck very early. Easy to lose interest if you know you cannot go anywhere and you really cannot have story telling if nothing ever happens. Must have good stories - all games need stories - and you don't even need a big Civ for it just a bit of interest. Map does need to be fair to builders though, not everyone wants to go on the old CivI 'Chariot Charge' from the start.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

One thing I'm hoping is that we'll be using Capo's Diplomacy Mod, because it sounds really AMAZING-but without making really major changes to the game mechanics. Hope I'm not alone in this.

Aussie.

[The Capo]

Thanks Aussie, and thanks for giving suggestions over at CFC. The new edition of my mod is going to be awesome and I hope to integrate some of the stuff you've worked on for it. Particularly some traits and civics. But I don't know that the next edition is going to be Diplo-friendly because there will be more changes (including some changes to UUs), although the purpose of the mod is to keep it close to the normal game mechanics so it is easy to transition from the normal game to my mod.

Enough about that. First I'd like to suggest BETWEEN 10 and 12 players, I personally think ten would be better than twelve but twelve is fine too I guess. I also think Pinchak should be in the game, he has some of the most sober points in debates (and this is coming from me, who makes arguments with a little too much passion... and don't get me started on the "sober" part...). I don't really think he was necessarily "deity-bashing" as much as he was "vet-bashing" (if that makes sense at all). I think a lot has happened since then, and Pinchak is a fantastic diplogamer who shows that you can accomplish a lot without posting too much (something I have yet to learn myself), all of his posts are nice and to the point while being very creative and substantive. He is a fantastic diplomat (when necessary) and a crafty opponent. I think with the new outlook we have since the BtP problems the entire dynamic of his pros-vets-noobs guide may have changed a little. I would personally like Pinchak to play in the next game. But I await his reply.

I still think we should wait until BtP ends before starting the new game, this gives us time to iron out all of the details, and I can't help but sense that the impatience and the "hurry up and play" attitude is becoming to rear its head again. To me we need to avoid that mentality and make sure everything is well thought out and deliberate.

[Heraclitus]

I dissagree beyond the pit will probably run for several months more, that is more than enough time to "iron out" the details. If there was no game running it would basically mean the diplo community would be "on hold" and it would certainly begin to bleed players (some of the people who have left BtP may already be interested in a new game).


But on the other hand perhaps finishing HOTW11 and HOTW12 might be a good way keep the players busy while we give through taught about the next major pitboss game and about the implications of using the diplo game mod.

[Robert]

HOTW 11 is that game where I runned that islamitic maniac ahmedinedjad style nation, right, where I intend to let the Great Prophet of Islam, Martin van Buuren, return with a stockpile of nukes, right, where Toni destroyd half my empire, right, where I intend to nuke him from the surface of eart, right? Yes, we should defenitely finish that game