Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[Pitboss Greece]

I'm in the same position as Rome. I offered the city of Wonsan for peace, but it was rejected. I can easily start grabbing Mayan cities but I've restrained myself for 2 turns already. I don't care to grab more Mayan cities (I don't need them) but in the end I want peace.

And Maya, perhaps we have an in-game dispute about the 2 or 5 turns, then that's still in-game. (and I wonder why you never corrected me when I publicly stated the 2 turns before war was declared)

[Robert]

@America: ok, I'm sorry for not doing so.

[Pitboss Maya]

but you can't attack me becaue that would be naughty'.

You won't be able to find me. You are welcome to wipe me out to end the war if you can.

I wonder why you never corrected me when I publicly stated the 2 turns before war was declared

because I seriously doubted it would matter or change the circumstances.



It is a red herring to say that if I only had played my turns and fought that things would have gone differently. Not counting city defenders (which is either none or about 1 per city) I have about 5 infantry running around the countryside. I was clobbered, from two sides, but much more powerful civs. So players of BTS, don't let Rome and Greece tell you that the reason they have all of Maya is because I didn't do anything about it. In fact, I fought tooth and nail over the double move rule to get the turn reloaded so I might have a slight chance at defending myself.

IMO, if Portugal and Khmer don't want Mayan citys to join the ranks of Rome and Greece for score/powerbalance reasons, then they should have stepped in or offered help. For the record, I did ask Khmer twice.

[St Jon]

It is a red herring to say that if I only had played my turns and fought that things would have gone differently. Not counting city defenders (which is either none or about 1 per city) I have about 5 infantry running around the countryside. I was clobbered, from two sides, but much more powerful civs. So players of BTS, don't let Rome and Greece tell you that the reason they have all of Maya is because I didn't do anything about it. In fact, I fought tooth and nail over the double move rule to get the turn reloaded so I might have a slight chance at defending myself.

IMO, if Portugal and Khmer don't want Mayan citys to join the ranks of Rome and Greece for score/powerbalance reasons, then they should have stepped in or offered help. For the record, I did ask Khmer twice.

I certainly am deeply disturbed by Rome/Sparta dividing up Maya between themselves. That is for wholly IG reasons! A strong Sparta is bad for me and threatens me directly so I wanted you to attack Gobi. A strong Rome just disappears ever higher into the clouds in score and will probably drag me into an unwanted War, when Portugal do feel threatened enough to act, due to Treaty obligation.

Equally, for IG reasons, I have absolutely no sympathy for you at all! I knew full well what was going to happen but, and much though anything that benefits Sparta endangers me, it never crossed my mind to give you any warning, implied or direct. I could even have aided you later by making my own, independent, land grab but chose not to.

Why? The simple explaination is that you have made every endeavour, I am still talking to Maya not Pinchak, to make yourself a very poor friend. I offered you a chance to tie down Sparta. You asked for Resourses and I gave them but then you just opted out with the comment 'if I want war with Sparta I will it fight myself not by proxy'! You conned me out of 10 Turns of surplus mined resourse, big deal, but then reneged on the deal. If you had shown a little forsight and lent me the Riflemen you promised then, come hell or high water, I would never have accepted peace. Sparta would had to have stood by its' Vassal but it had neither sufficient Troops or Transport in the area to do so. Those Troops would have had to come from somewhere! Rome was Treaty bound to aid me and by the time any meaningful Spartan forces were in the area we would have had a basic stalemate. I would have benefited, true, but your benefits in the long-term would have been far greater. By the time Sparta had backed down, and sold its' Vassal down the river as it would have had to, your military would have hugely improved and Spartan forces would have been well out of position to attack you. A side-effect would have been that I might have had cause to regard you as an Ally!

I can only imagine that your dealings with other Civ's in BtP have been similarly untrustworthy and that your lack of friends and allies in this conflict is the result. Rome has been a good ally to me, I am still talking IG, and kept promises, even prepared to face a War with Sparta to honour those promises, so what possible reason would I have to betray Rome? Sparta are a long term threat but have still kept promises, even when at War with me!

NOT IG. This is the big difference! Backstabbing and deceit are all part of the game but if you are a perenial liar and hostile to all then nobody will trust you or help you. Both Portugal and Khmer could have stopped the attack dead in it's tracks by offering Vassalage and leaving the stark alternative to Sparta and Rome of abandoning their campaigns or facing the deadly consequences of a two front War. Double moves and whether Rome or Sparta attacked first are the real 'red herrings' here as whichever did the result would have been the same. This is down to you alone and your tactics in this game!

[Robert]

Sparta are a long term threat but have still kept promises, even when at War with me!

I must be the first civ player ever to hand over a Great Person to his enemy during a war

[Pitboss Khmer]

IMO, if Portugal and Khmer don't want Mayan citys to join the ranks of Rome and Greece for score/powerbalance reasons, then they should have stepped in or offered help. For the record, I did ask Khmer twice.

Khmer had a transport of tanks on the way with more to follow - but it takes time to get there.

Khmer can not deal with a kamakaze leader so they have returned.

[Pitboss Khmer]

All the same I don't think Khmer would have done what Rome did and attacked Maya while they are at war with Sparta.

But we all judge things in our own way and it's all within the rules.

[Pitboss Greece]

Rome having a walk in the park against the Maya by jumping into a war started by Sparta
Sparta having the bravery and courage to attack the Maya while still on full strength

/propaganda

[The Capo]

What happened? Was Maya conquered?

[Robert]

No, Maya almost invaded the Gobi, then Sparta counter-invaded Korea and took Korea from Maya. The Romans then invaded from the north and took the ?north east? of Maya.
There's still a large portion of Maya left over, as far as I know.

[St Jon]

My on the ground reports would indicate that there is rather less of it this Turn than last!

From your respective troop dispositions I rather think that the citizens of at least two more Mayan Cities will have embarked on their own very special 'Roman Holiday' and another more will be learning the joys of eating Moussaka and fornicating with goats by the time I next log in!:

[Robert]

My troops have been next to that city for 3 turns already.
I'm waiting for Mayan response to my peace proposals. I didn't take anything since the 'pause'.

[Pitboss Rome]

Well, don't be too hasty St Jon.

But you are right, the Mayan have ignored any attempt at treaty or peace, and indeed not only have they declared their desire for an endless war here, but the troops which I allowed to depart from the battle field recently have just attacked and captured a city.

No complaints against the Maya here. They did not ask for clemancy on the battlefield; they did not ask for their injured soliders be allowed to retire, they did not ask for a pause in the battle nor for peace.

But it does mean that we have no option but to continue the war against the Maya.

[Pitboss Rome]

In case of any confusion, as I was just finishing my turn, the connection went down. I don't have time to go back in now, and the turn was mainly finished. But I have finished, and will not log in again this turn.

[Pitboss Maya]

NOT IG. This is the big difference! Backstabbing and deceit are all part of the game but if you are a perenial liar and hostile to all then nobody will trust you or help you. Both Portugal and Khmer could have stopped the attack dead in it's tracks by offering Vassalage and leaving the stark alternative to Sparta and Rome of abandoning their campaigns or facing the deadly consequences of a two front War. Double moves and whether Rome or Sparta attacked first are the real 'red herrings' here as whichever did the result would have been the same. This is down to you alone and your tactics in this game!

:middlefinger:

I reneged on some resource for 10 turns?!? Oh, surely THAT makes me a liar and untrustworthy.

I didn't deliver riflemen? You never told me where to send them, and when I asked you said it was too late.

I took a strong stance to both Rome and Sparta so that the game wouldn't degenerate into the strongest sticking together. I had good friends with Korea, Khmer, and before you took them over, Russia.

So before you go into a long dissertation about why my civ fell, check your facts. Maya was the only interesting thing in this game, and it is tragic that it eventually contributed to their downfall.