Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread IV]

[Pitboss Portugal]

Welcome back Capo, you were missed!

Hope you are alright now.

[Pitboss Persia]

Having the game continue as it did, made me loose some turns of production from almost all my cities and some turns of research, plus, there is a roman army of ~20 Units at the gates of Meeting, already bringing it's defenses down, that wasn't there the last turn i could play.

I talked about this with Rome, and we believe a reload from the day i told about my broken internet connection may be a possible solution to this issue.

Is this possible ?

[Robert]

Reloading...... it's not that I do not understand your problem, but if we start reloading for player A who missed a few turns, then players b, c, d and e will also claim a reload as soon as they miss some turns.

Why did you not ask someone to sub for you? Ie. the Maya, they are (were) at war with Rome as well. Just send your passwords to them the moment it became impossible for you to play. (you was able to post, so you could've sent a PM)

Another question: would things have been different if you would've been able to play?
Would you have seen the army coming?
Beakers / hammers aren't lost while you are offline. They are stockpiled, if I'm correct.

If we reload Rome will get a disadvantage. (you know that his army is coming, you know how big it is, and what it consists of)

Would it be possible to delay the Roman attack by 2 turns? (ie. Rome promises to not attack for 2 (or 3) turns, so you get time to do basicly that what you would do if we reload the game now 3 turns?

It's not that I do not want to reload (eventhough I Hate it to go back in time, game-wise).
It's just that it opens up another can of worms.

[Pitboss Khmer]

Having the game continue as it did, made me loose some turns of production from almost all my cities and some turns of research, plus, there is a roman army of ~20 Units at the gates of Meeting, already bringing it's defenses down, that wasn't there the last turn i could play.

I talked about this with Rome, and we believe a reload from the day i told about my broken internet connection may be a possible solution to this issue.

Is this possible ?

Well, I offerred to sub for you but no one said anything.

We can't go back.

[Pitboss Korea]

While I do agree that going back and reloading is the worst possible outcome, its not as if he didn't say anything. He did say his internet connection wasn't working, and he did say he wasn't able to play. This is sufficient to get a sub, I think. I mean the Russian player said something similar and that civ was taken care of while he was gone. I would just think something similar would have been done for Piercia.

I agree, no he did not specifically say that he needed a sub, but the statement "my internet connection is not working and I will not be able to play for x amount of days" is basically the same thing. He should have been subbed for. I'm not sure who is responsible for getting a sub, but if he couldn't use his internet how is he supposed to find a sub? We have to take that into consideration too.

I am not FOR reloading though, but I don't think its as easy as just saying no outright. Something should be done about this, or something SHOULD HAVE BEEN done about it at least.

[Robert]

Just for the record: people have to find their own subs.
Only if they really can't, they should ask others to find a sub.

Check the org threads, there are like 100 messages of people who aren't able to play for a couple of days.

In every diplogame people find their own subs. If you don't find your own sub, who else will do it?
And it's pretty easy in this game to find a sub for a couple of days. Just pm or mail an ally your login-info, and he can sub for you for a couple of days.

If you really don't know everyone can always mail me and ask me to sub.
I will never say 'no' if people are in real troubles.

But I can't sub or find a sub if I don't even know players login-credentials.
And Persia was online to post the msg, that means that he could also send a pm to a friend or allie (or me) with he 'please sub for me' question, including his login/pass.

Regarding the Rome/Persia situation: can the 'war' not just be delayed a couple of turns, giving Persia he chance to do those things he would've done if he would've been online?
Maybe if that gives difficulties, try to solve these difficulties. (ie. Persia changing research path as well for a couple of turns)

[Pitboss Persia]

I only had very few time on the internet when posting that my connection was broken. Basicly I didn't expect people to find a sub, but I expected no agressive action from Rome while I wasn't able to play.
Rome said that he couldn't wait for me to finish the reasearch I had at that time (which is now finished) and I can see his point.
My point is that 2 turns of doing nothing at all with his troops (and this includes city bombardment) would give Rome a 10% fortify bonus.
So the solution I suggest would be to move the whole stack (which I wouldn't attack during that move) for two turns.
It would have changed something in my build orders and troop movements to have seen this army coming (and I would have) instead of loging in and having it right next to my city.
I know there is no rule about this Rome could have broken, but moving units on the territory of a player that is currently unable to play doesn't seem very fair to me.

[Pitboss Maya]

LzPrst for quitting.

I have Russia on my demographic chart, and they are actually beating me in several significant areas.

He blames the map, but there are other civs with arguably worse land. My start for instance... nothing but jungle and hardly any hills.

I think some people (cough, ozzy.... cough, cough, LzPrst) are just used to being a game leader and with 18 civs the competition was just a little too much.

Just my opinion.

[Pitboss Rome]

I'm sorry, but I don't think what Piercia is suggesting is possible. I have every sympathy with his sense that he missed the chance to act for a couple of turns, but that really isn't my fault.

People might remember that the timing of this war wasn't of my choosing. But my enemies made the mistake of attacking me when I had gunpowder but they did not. Immediately they, including Piercia, started researching it. This gave me a brief window of advantage. While Piercia wasn't able to log on, his scientists kept researching and indeed completed gunpowder, and cities continued to build units. I've seen them appear - for example at the beginning I had a naval blockade of Meeting but during the period Piecia wasn't logging in, ships were completed in Meeting, which meant I had to call off the blockade (because of course I had no way of knowing that Piercia wasn't going to log in at any time). Now of course Piercia would like an extra few turns to be able to build more units, including his new gunpowder units, to improve the defense of Meeting. Wouldn't we all when we are attacked like a pause of a few turns to build extra defenders? When four nations attacked me out of the blue a month ago, I would have loved a pause.

I'm not trying to just be awkward but my campaigns have been very carefully planned. Judging the moment to attack to be the point when I have built up as many forces as possible, but Piercia hasn't been able to use the new technology effectively. Indeed I know all of the Piercian troop deployments and launched this attack when I did because on the basis of the Pierican troop deployments, the length of time it takes me to reduce the defences to zero, the position of my troops elsewhere and the threat to other places etc., this moment was the moment when the attack had a chance of success. It wasn't 'Piercia isn't playing so I will attack' but 'I have just signed peace with the Greeks, the piercians have this number of troops in these cities, they are this number of turns from gunpowder etc., so this is the moment to attack'. When my stack entered Piercian territory I had no way of knowing that the Piercian player wouldn't come back that turn and attack it. To insert now a two turn pause for the Piercians to build up their defences completely changes the balance of power, and the basis on which I decided to attack when I did.

Furthermore, if I had known five turns ago that i couldn't attack Piercia, knights would have gone to the Eastern Front and attacked the Rus. I gave up the chance to capture Kirsk because there was a moment of opportunity to attack Meeting. We can't stop me using my army against Piercia without be having the chance to have used it five turns ago against the Rus rather than rushing it west.

Sorry but I haven't done anything wrong. Indeed I posted here publicly that my forces had entered piercia encouraging the Piercian to come back. Just as I posted publicly asking for someone to sub for Russia, even though it would be easier for me nobody did - I have never wanted to take advantage. But I have made carefully calculated decisions turn by turn on the basis my intelligence about the four different nations which attacked me. To insert an arbitrary delay now because of something which happened ten days ago completely undermines turns of planning and decision making.

If I were Piercia i am sure I would also feel that "moving units on the territory of a player that is currently unable to play doesn't seem very fair to me." but see it from my point of view. Piercia attacked me, and lost his army. How is it fair if I then can't seize the opportunity and counter-attack but have to wait for him to rebuild his forces?

[Pitboss Persia]

I can see your point, and I won't be whining if the game just goes on. Especially because there is no rule for this kind of situation. (We could need one for upcoming situations however).

But your argument can be turned other way round : why should I let you continue only because you had careful planning while I wasn't able to log in at all, especially with you knowing that I couldn't play ?

Anyway, I don't think 2 turns would change much. Just think about a possible compromise. If you can't find one, it's a pity, but I will have to accept it. As I said ingame, I don't blame you, I blame my provider

[Robert]

There is a rule for these situations: find a sub, or if you can't find one, ask the game-leader (me) to sub for you.

We can't pause the game everytime someone can't play a few turns. If we start pausing the game for player A then we'll have game pauses every few turns for players B to T.
The nature of a Pitboss game is that it just continues, and it's easy to get a sub, because every player can play multiple civs, if needed, for a limited period.

All civs have missed a couple of turns.
I am not going to 'kick' a player from the game to overtake his civ and sub for him if I'm not being asked. I could've done that 20 times already.

So the rule is clear: if you can't play: find a sub yourself! If you can't find a sub ask me to find one or sub for you. That includes giving me your login-info.

We're living in 2009. Everybody must be able to login somewhere to Apolyton to at least get a sub

[OzzyKP]

LzPrst for quitting.

I have Russia on my demographic chart, and they are actually beating me in several significant areas.

He blames the map, but there are other civs with arguably worse land. My start for instance... nothing but jungle and hardly any hills.

I think some people (cough, ozzy.... cough, cough, LzPrst) are just used to being a game leader and with 18 civs the competition was just a little too much.

Just my opinion.

[Pitboss Rome]

Last turn the Rus went first, then me, then Piercia.

The Rus haven't played yet, but I wanted to get my turn in before Piercia. Therefore I have moved my forced near Piercia, but not those near the Rus.

Therefore Piercia do feel free to move; I have done my moves near you.
Rus, I haven't moved near you yet, to try to keep to the alternating.

Hope this sounds OK.

[LzPrst]

LzPrst for quitting.

I have Russia on my demographic chart, and they are actually beating me in several significant areas.

He blames the map, but there are other civs with arguably worse land. My start for instance... nothing but jungle and hardly any hills.

I think some people (cough, ozzy.... cough, cough, LzPrst) are just used to being a game leader and with 18 civs the competition was just a little too much.

Just my opinion.

Normally I would be the first to say the same. And yes, I usually do quite well. Which is why I am wondering among other things, what the hell happened. One thing that is certain is that the map gave me a big disadvantage. I have no idea what Ozzy or Aztecs started with, but I have nothing but grassland in one part of the country, and nothing but plains hills in the other. That's great you'd say, but when my eastern cities can't build anything because of lack of production that's a bit of a problem, and when the western half cannot grow beyond size 5 that's a bit of a handicap as well. When in addition the Romans who are (due mainly to land imbalance) is a superpower, the only civ bordering me, aggressively grab land from their weaker and smaller neighbour, things start looking sour.

I tried branching out and getting alliances elsewhere, subjecting myself to Piercian rule, which ended in a big alliance attacking Rome. Who got help from the nr 1 power, Portugal and went on to grab more land.

The reason I'm quitting is not because I'm doing badly, it's because I have NO potential of getting anywhere. I'm boxed in by a hostile military superpower, I have no tech production, no hammer production and small cities with extremely limited development possibilities. The one thing I do have is spy points to the superpowers Rome and Portugal, and I'm watching them tech into the industrial age, while I'm still stuck in the early medieval. This game is already decided. Two of the biggest powers, Rome and Portugal, have conveniently snuggled up against eachother and that's a game breaker.

I have no chance of winning this game, at all. None. So why should I stay? The game is not fun for me. I don't mind an underdog position, reference Germany in Hotw5, but this is hopeless cause there's no way out. No potential. No hope. So what's the point? In about 10 turns or so Portugal will have Democracy. When that happens my people will start demanding Emancipation. No way I can get that before my cities have all collapsed to size 1 due to unhappiness. So please, give me a reason why I should stay.

[Robert]

Last turn the Rus went first, then me, then Piercia.

The Rus haven't played yet, but I wanted to get my turn in before Piercia. Therefore I have moved my forced near Piercia, but not those near the Rus.

Therefore Piercia do feel free to move; I have done my moves near you.
Rus, I haven't moved near you yet, to try to keep to the alternating.

Hope this sounds OK.

You're free to move. (the 6 hours have passed anyway)
I'm not able to move Russia for the next many hours anyway.