Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread III]

[Pitboss H Roman]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


I hear you. My land is very poor and boring in my corner of the world too.

Then I guess you won't mind parting with some of it.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Pitboss Portugal
You can count on me Ozzy!

Actually, could you sub for me today/tonight as well?

I won't be home till Friday night and I think I'll miss this turn entirely, and... from the look of things, it is a rather important one.

[Robert]

@Russia: You say that you lack hills, ok, then you say that you don't want to build workshops because that'll hurt your economy.

I don't get that!
If you would have had hills on the places where you want to build workshops now, then you wouldn't have had an economy there either.

Some tiles are for economy, others for growth and others for production.

Spread irrigation through your entire empire, build a lot of cottages and a lot of workshops.
And indeed, there are obiously more resources out there.
You can also build a few more cities near the mountains, if I'm correct.

Or otherwise focus on an awesome story.
I've played games where my land was 10 times as poor as yours currently. (India on the south-pole with only tundra, ie. or America deep inside the jungle with just only jungle) and I've always enjoyed it a lot.

I must say that Ozzy dissapoints me a bit as well.
First there wasn't much of a story (While he had that much creative plans) and now he's a getting behind and wants to quit the game

What's up with the good old "we fix everything in our stories" attitude?
Dude, I've been your puppet in two games where my perspectives where 10 times as low as yours now.

c'mon guys! make something out of it!

[The Capo]

Originally posted by CyberShy
c'mon guys! make something out of it!

I agree, my civ has very little production and we are the smallest by far. Yet I continue to write posts and not complain about my low status. Besides Russia you are right in the thick of the latest diplomatic issue, and can still pose a serious effect on upcoming issues on our side of the planet. You are in a great position for a diplogame. And Cyber is right; you could easily get story, diplo, and military votes from your position.

[Pitboss Portugal]

Actually, could you sub for me today/tonight as well?

OK Ozzy, i will play your turn tonight.

[OzzyKP]

I don't especially want to quit, but I haven't really cared about this game for months. I've been going through the motions for the good of the game. It has absolutely nothing to do with how good or bad I am doing in the game. I'm in the middle of the pack, neither good nor bad.

Despite the point total, the land and map are pretty boring, as Russia stated. Though that can obviously be overcome, and I don't really think I'm horrible in the game so I wouldn't blame the land for anything about my position, just my enjoyment. But there are numerous factors that haven't made this game enjoyable for months now. Which is why just switching to the Vikings, in a much better position, as you suggested earlier, wouldn't help.

But I don't intend to just up and leave. I'll continue to play my turns and do my best.

[Robert]

That's the spirit!

[Pinchak]

Just like in real life, when people find themselves in a bad situation, it is human nature to blame ANYTHING but themselves.

In this case, it is easy to blame the map.

Admittedly, I was only 90% done with it when it was released. The call to start the game was so strong I just released it so the *****ing would stop (plus I think Cyber gave me an ultimatum as well). If people cannot wait an extra day or two in order to ensure a quality map for the next two years.... well then you reap what you sow.

Now, without revealing who I am in-game (although I am sure some of you know anyway), I have very bad naturally occurring production (ie. plains hills, metal resources, etc...). But I adapted, which is what a good player does. And by adapted I mean I'm not focusing my civ on production. Although if I wanted to, I could go the watermill/workshop route. There is an answer to everything. I'm not even going to mention the fact that my ENTIRE area was covered in jungle.

Your problem Russia (if i remember the map correctly) is that you let Rome take too much of the mountain range that divides you. I believe we went over your conundrum before, with screenshots and everything, and there were several good production city sites.

Korea has a similar problem. When I made the map I envisioned that whoever got his spot would expand further west, into a very production rich region. They lost it however, and are currently dealing very well with the cards they have.

Hopefully by now people are realizing that I tried to make the map more like a real planet... where terrain types and resource types tend to be clumped or at least regionalized... as opposed to randomly dispersed. This may be why some people are saying, "my area is boring", "all i have is corn and cows", etc... The key is TRADE. If you have nothing but corn and cows, chances are there are many nations out there that have NO corn or cows, but will gladly trade you for them, which actually is an advantage because now you can have more choice over your resources.

My hope in doing it this way was that resources would play a bigger role in diplomacy, or at least a different role. You just have to be open minded and adapt.

My hope in creating very lucrative areas between starting locations was that civs would fight over them. Turns out however that one civ just snatches it up, and the other one bietches about how the map is unfair because civ A has such better land. Booo F-ing hooo.... fight for it, get others to help you.

Regarding Ozzy.... I told you all he would show little interest if it became apparent he would not be a top civ. Oh, but I was crazy paranoid and delusional back then for saying something like that.

I love it when I am right... which is almost all the time.

Ozzy: Whereas my posts generally rock and so does my score.

<--- winner

Not this game sucker.

But there are numerous factors that haven't made this game enjoyable for months now.

Due tell.... what is it about this game that is not thrilling to you Ozzy? Besides the fact that you will probably not place.

[Robert]

Pinchak, good post, though you should really remove the name calling, etc.
that'll make sure that the message won't come across. (if you don't remove it!)

[Pitboss Japan]

He does make good points.

[Pitboss H Roman]

I'm with CS regarding toning down your post, pin.

But I am 100% behind pinchak's map.

Nothing wrong with it as far as I can see. And besides, the map does not make the game, unless it is seriously flawed, and this one ain't.

[Pitboss H Roman]

Originally posted by Pinchak
But I adapted, which is what a good player does.

My hope in creating very lucrative areas between starting locations was that civs would fight over them. Turns out however that one civ just snatches it up, and the other one bietches about how the map is unfair because civ A has such better land. Booo F-ing hooo.... fight for it, get others to help you.

Doing just that.

[Pinchak]

Pinchak, good post, though you should really remove the name calling, etc. that'll make sure that the message won't come across. (if you don't remove it!)

I'm with CS regarding toning down your post, pin.

I am not aware of any name calling. If so, please point it out.

Regarding the tone... when people complain about the map I take it personally, because first off I spent alot of time on it, and secondly because I was forced to release it before I was done, and thirdly because people are trying to blame it instead of their shoddy play.

My statements regarding Ozzy are a bit pointed because I PREDICTED this in my Guide to Diplo Noobs, Vets, and Pros. WHICH by the way as been deleted?!?!?

As far as I remember it contained no profanities, only opinion, which has a deep element of truth to it.

My guess as to why Ozzy, "hasen't really cared about this game for months", is that it doesn't fall into the standard diplogame player format, and thus cannot be subject to the standard diplogame manipulations.

I would cite my manual.... but the mind police have burned it...

[The Capo]

While I agree that certain people got a better position than others as far as the map goes, I must agree with Pinchak that you have to accept what you've got. In the real world there are certain areas of the world that have much better resources (and more abundant resources) than others. So while I think my spot could have been better I don't think this should effect my interest in the game. That said, if someone doesn't want to play they shouldn't have to

So if Ozzy wants to leave, we should let him. But this does suck, this will basically mark a third person who wants out of the game, which is a little disheartening in general. But I will play on.

[OzzyKP]

I'm not surprised in the least that Pin would relish even the slightest bit disatisfaction on my part. I assure you though, it doesn't have anything to do with my place in the game.

Score in the game is determined by diplomacy, stories and war. The in-game score is only one-fourth of the package. It would be foolish for me to be upset or bummed about that quarter of the game. If I cared about this game I'd make more of an effort to excel in the other areas and regardless of my in-game score I could win this game. That is the beauty of the system we have set up. Capo, who honestly really sucks at Civ, is one of the top players in the game because of his excellent skills with story telling an diplomacy.

As for the factors... ugh, I really didn't want to come and bad mouth the game because I know others are enjoying it. Also, I didn't want to bad mouth the map cause I know you put a lot of time into it Pin. While everyone else was complaining about it I defended you. But obviously your hate for me is beyond all reason.

But since he gets so much delight over thinking I'm a hypocrite I guess I need to say a few of the things that bug me about this game. I don't say this to gripe, we've had more than enough of it this game. So please, I don't want to start a debate or argument, just stating my personal thoughts here.

1. The map - Sorry Pin, you couldn't leave it alone, so after sticking up for you for months I'll go into more detail on why I think this map sucks. The large tracts of land, which you think is realistic, is not only not realistic, it isn't fun or playable. What makes games interesting is giving players interesting choices. Interesting trade offs. If all the land in every direction is exactly the same, there is no choice and not interesting.

The starts are very unbalanced. Some civs are very cramped, others had huge amounts of land. Now to an extent, I agree that some variety is good, no need to necessarily have all the civs the same, but at the same time it creates unfun situations. Either you have too much land and can easily put down like 20+ cities peacefully, or you have room for like 5 cities and are bumping elbows with everyone around you.

The resource placement doesn't seem to be how you describe it. If player A has 8 different resources nearby, and player B has 2, trading becomes difficult. Not just the variety of resources is an issue, but the lack of them. If you have only corn and cow by you, fine, but if you have only like 4 total, then that makes for some boring cities. In the regular game you often are given interesting choices on how to build cities so as to capture the optimal number of resources. In this game it seems like I am sometimes lucky just to get one resource in my borders.

At least on my continent, I think the shape of the land is cool and interesting, but there is much room for improvement in resource placement and selection of plains/hills/forest/grass/tundra etc.

2. Too Many Posts - There is just too much in this game. Having 18 players put up 20 posts of random **** about weddings and Bob the Bearslayer who climbed up to the top of some hill, just drains the life out of the game. Stories should help give depth to the game, be entertaining and such. But past a point it just gets tedious. From the absolute beginning of the game I never read the vast majority of posts. There was just too much.

3. Real World - Life happens. I started dating someone in April and she is a bit of a time suck, so I haven't had as much time for this game as I had for games in the past. And when there is a deluge of inane posts I just don't have the time to devote to that crap.

4. Drama - Most diplogames have a degree of drama, but this one particular has just had all sorts of complaining and arguing and whining and it just gets on my nerves. Not only don't I have the time or patience for a million inane story pots, but I don't have the time or patience for a million inane posts complaining about ****. 18 people just increases the drama. Too many people.

5. Two continents - Also, I don't like having people on two different continents. The map is so big and people are so disconnected from each other. Not only is the thread full of a million posts, they are all from people I've never met before and even if I do meet them, will rarely have any effect on my game because they are so far away.

6. My theme - Regrettably, I think I should have picked a more standard real-world type civ. Generally what I do for my stories is just take a bit of real world history and merge it with what happens in the game. I have a great deal of material for the Metalheads, by way of song lyrics and band names and such, but it takes a lot more effort and creativity to assemble story lines that way. I can't just copy & paste a Wikipedia article and change some details in it. When things come together, I think they work well, like my storyline with Oswald the Noisy Bard, I was able to weave a few things together nicely. Plus the whole story I started about the civil war, was shaping up to be really good as well, but it got to be too daunting. Too many song lyrics to go through, etc.

7. My Neighborhood - I rarely communicated with any of my neighbors in this game. People never made any attempt to speak much to me, and often just ignored my messages (like HRE early on). So it felt very much like a very slow SP game. The intrigue, alliances and diplomacy of past games was missing quite early on.

8. Imbalance - My neck of the woods is extremely unbalanced. We have the game's biggest and most advanced nation, and several of the game's smallest and most backwards nations. Even if my neighbors seemed interested in communicating, there wasn't much basis for a good alliance or partnership. My limited attempts in the past were mostly ignored. The power imbalance makes it difficult too to find a goal. At least for me. I couldn't attack any of my smaller neighbors, since they had nothing to give me and it would seem like I was kicking someone when they were down, and I couldn't attack the Khmer cause they are just fricken huge and scary. So there was nothing to really strive for. Obviously while I couldn't attack my neighbors, i didn't prepare enough for all my neighbors attacking me. Clearly my fault, but trust me, that was a result of my detachment from this game is in not a cause. So it isn't that I feel I am doing very poorly, but just that there aren't many options for me. Not many interesting choices. That is what it comes down to.

So Pin, believe me or don't believe me, I don't care. You seem intent to hate me whatever I do. And again, I'm not trying to criticize the game. Just trying to explain my feelings on it. Some of you might have similar feelings, others might not be experiencing anything like this at all. That's fine. Just putting it out there so I'm not accused of being some sore loser hypocrite.