Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread III]

[Robert]

Because that opens the door for huge exploits, like: "Making Civ A a vassal of Civ B, giving all techs, then making CIv B a vassal of Civ A and giving all techs."

Being a vassal will be used for trading techs.
It's simple, every civ can only trade 15 techs or vouchers away. It's a solid rule. If Spain used up all it's vouchers, then it's impossible to require them to give up techs or vouchres.

[Pitboss Japan]

But what if a lagit bottom 3 civ wanted to become a Vassel of a top 3 civ. Are you saying that even if they did that the bigger civ would not be allowed to help the smaller civ?

[Robert]

yes, help is accepted, but not by giving techs.
There are many ways to give tech, ie. by supplying much money so that the bottom civ can put research on 100%

[Pitboss Japan]

what other ways are there?

[Toni]

Give that weaker civ a GP to pop a nice tech.

Or

Have the big guy attack a 3rd party and demand that they gift techs to that small civ

[Pitboss Japan]

What If the bigger civ were like the Vikings. They don't like to fight wars so attacking another party would not work and I dought many would give a GP for free even to a vassal. So what other ways are there?

[Pitboss Vikings]

leave me out of this...


i would fight wars if i was big like the greeks , romans or portugese. but we are a peacefuil civ surrounded by big aggresive ones.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Pitboss Japan
What If the bigger civ were like the Vikings. They don't like to fight wars so attacking another party would not work and I dought many would give a GP for free even to a vassal. So what other ways are there?

Use your imagination.
But giving techs is just not an option.

It's like giving your palace is not an option
Or moving your units in 1 turn to the other side of the map is not an option

[Pitboss Vikings]

must remember those non options

[The Capo]

Yeah, Spain wouldn't be able to give techs as an indemnity if they didn't have vouchers. Basically the Vikings would have to give them vouchers (in your scenario) in order for them to gain the tech, so it would pretty much be a trade.

For instance, Vikings conquer Madrid and Seville, the Spanish sue for peace. The Vikings demand three techs but Spain has no vouchers. Say the Vikings have three vouchers, they would "give" Spain these vouchers in exchange for the techs. So in essence the Vikings would lose three vouchers in order to get the three techs. Other than that I don't see a way it could happen unless the Vikings were total ****** and forced Spain to give them the techs anyway, in which case Spain would have to ask other countries for vouchers.

And then of course there is no tech-brokering, so that throws another wrench into the works.

[Pitboss Japan]

Here is another question now. How much is a tech really worth? And what has more value, the tech or the tech voucher?

[Pitboss Vikings]

wow now you wil l get people speaking of nbeakers per tech etc

[Pitboss Japan]

At least it is something to talk about. Plus I'm interested to know the answer.

[deity]

Originally posted by Pitboss Japan
At least it is something to talk about. Plus I'm interested to know the answer.

It all depends on the strategic context.

If you are about to get attacked and need Bronze Working to rush Axes then the value is beyond beaker counter. An unscrupulous civ (like Portuigal) might offer Bronze for 3 tech vouchers.... for example....

I find that I only trade for a tech if I can use it straight away. I love the 15 tech limit and it highlights decisions about whether to trade or wait. Obviously the later techs are worth more beakers but often an early tech can catapult the development of your civ.

I see that most are using around half their vouchers before Gunpowder.

[The Capo]

I couldn't agree with deity more.

Which is precisely where strategy comes into play. If you are a "big civ," or in other words an extremely technologically advanced civ (who presumably trades a lot of tech) you are going to need more vouchers because they offer more of an opportunity to utilize your techs for trade (perhaps for land, for resources, or what have you), while at the same time a smaller civ will need them to GAIN more techs, since they can't actually trade the techs.

I don't think there is really a voucher for beaker "formula" you can use, in other words, its up to what you need at the given moment or how a specific tech will help you. For instance Optics may not mean much to normal civs but for a civ like Portugal this could catapult them into overseas territory because of their UU. This could also be applied to UBs for certain civs, for certain wonders, techs that allow religious techs to be discovered, techs like Economics, Biology, Printing Press (etc.) that are necessary for their benefits (say you need food or money badly for instance). So the vouchers are like a wildcard, they don't have a specific value to them. To a civ that is behind and doesn't have useful techs to trade a voucher is really valuable, to a civ that is way ahead and doesn't really want to trade techs or give them away a voucher could be used in place of other things, and of course vouchers could have other uses as well. Its like an extra commodity with a limitless value.

For instance if you save your vouchers up, later in the game you could have a "Japan-like" era of technological growth. It just depends on how you play it.