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Thanks for your feedback, guys.
If I understand you correctly (most of) you guys don't consider diplomacy using military pressure to be good diplomacy.
Point noticed.
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Just in response (for the sake of the debate)
- Why not?
Diplomacy is imho gaining your targets through 'talking'. Building up pressure is obviously a part of that. As is promising stuff, speaking friendly words, try to get others involved, etc. etc.
It's clear that a big power civ can use the military pressure tool more easily done, but there's more:
* There's only a thin line for big army civs. If they act too harsh they face suddenly many other civilizations. Small civs get more sympathy from other civs. Even if they do a lot of big talk, etc.
* Small civs get easier help from allies, big civs are sooner on their own
* Using big military pressure can easily alienate the other civ away. You can gain your goals but also have a new big enemy who is seeking revenge (and starts building up an army to get back to you sooner or later)
Take the USA (IRL). It shows that only using power-talk is not going to help you to build up a diplomatic victory.
Now apply these points on in-game Sparta:
- I did not alienate any of the civs around me on whom I have putted pressure. I'm on good terms with Korea, Japan, Piercia and even Rome.
- I have used power talk and military pressure, but nobody hates Sparta in game. I have offered the other civs goodies to ease their pain. I did not just big-mouth them, I tried to find a solution, holding my military power behind me to help them picking my options.
- My military pressure on Piercia/Rome was definitely a brave action. Rome and Piercia together were much bigger then Sparta. If they would've grabbed bait and moved away from Portugal to me I would have had a problem
Summary:
- I was able to achieve my goals, keep the other civs kinda friendly and pleased, kept friends, made no enemies. Kept peace and stability in my part of the world.
I think it's too simplistic to say that I Just used powerplay to gain goals. That, Rasputin y friend, is a very flat-sighted view on diplogaming!
And now to reveal the biggest suprise; my army was, until recently, never that big, at most average.
When I threatened Piercia / rome I had a #10 army, when I threatened Japan I was #9.
Right now I am #3 but that's only b/c of recent build up.
Japan in the early game was an example to me. He used a big mouth and much threats against other civs. We all were a bit afraid of Japan. After all we know that his army was pathetic, but I adored him for giving us the feeling that Japan was big and scary. I gave many votes to him for that.
I felt that Sparta should be feared likewise and perfectioned his example. I builded up a story around my armies fighting each other, posting maps with false troop-positions (without ever claiming they were troop positions). Sent my spare units to my neighbours to help them, giving the idea that my army as big enough anyway, etc. etc.
My entire powertalk was part of the game.
I think that I can reveal it now, it's all in the past now.
Just doing this to show that 'powerplay diplomacy' is more then just flat out using your big army to criple other civs.
@Japan: you want me to use my big army to attack other civs?
Which civs?
I'm not going to criple or attack either Japan or Korea.
All other civs are too far away for now.
I tried to use some powerplay at Piercia/Rome, before you became the player. But sending an army big enough to wage a real war to another civ is not going to work. It'll take that army 20 turns to arrive, which will criple my economy. Not to mention that we're talking about Oldonia or Maya then. Both civs I don't want to criple either. (apart from being friends / allies).
Then I can send an army to Piercia or Rome or the NAtives. I need many galleys for that, and once again 20 something turns.
Making war is not an option at this stage of the game. I could most probably easily destroy Korea, Japan and Maya at this moment, but I really don't want to do that. I'd rather be at good terms with them, and keep them as my friends. I think the value of that is much bigger. Not to mention that I don't need more lebensraum.
If I go to war there need to be in-game reasons for that. Not just "going to war with a bigger opponent".
If I understand you correctly (most of) you guys don't consider diplomacy using military pressure to be good diplomacy.
Point noticed.
-----------------------
Just in response (for the sake of the debate)
- Why not?
Diplomacy is imho gaining your targets through 'talking'. Building up pressure is obviously a part of that. As is promising stuff, speaking friendly words, try to get others involved, etc. etc.
It's clear that a big power civ can use the military pressure tool more easily done, but there's more:
* There's only a thin line for big army civs. If they act too harsh they face suddenly many other civilizations. Small civs get more sympathy from other civs. Even if they do a lot of big talk, etc.
* Small civs get easier help from allies, big civs are sooner on their own
* Using big military pressure can easily alienate the other civ away. You can gain your goals but also have a new big enemy who is seeking revenge (and starts building up an army to get back to you sooner or later)
Take the USA (IRL). It shows that only using power-talk is not going to help you to build up a diplomatic victory.
Now apply these points on in-game Sparta:
- I did not alienate any of the civs around me on whom I have putted pressure. I'm on good terms with Korea, Japan, Piercia and even Rome.
- I have used power talk and military pressure, but nobody hates Sparta in game. I have offered the other civs goodies to ease their pain. I did not just big-mouth them, I tried to find a solution, holding my military power behind me to help them picking my options.
- My military pressure on Piercia/Rome was definitely a brave action. Rome and Piercia together were much bigger then Sparta. If they would've grabbed bait and moved away from Portugal to me I would have had a problem
Summary:
- I was able to achieve my goals, keep the other civs kinda friendly and pleased, kept friends, made no enemies. Kept peace and stability in my part of the world.
I think it's too simplistic to say that I Just used powerplay to gain goals. That, Rasputin y friend, is a very flat-sighted view on diplogaming!
And now to reveal the biggest suprise; my army was, until recently, never that big, at most average.
When I threatened Piercia / rome I had a #10 army, when I threatened Japan I was #9.
Right now I am #3 but that's only b/c of recent build up.
Japan in the early game was an example to me. He used a big mouth and much threats against other civs. We all were a bit afraid of Japan. After all we know that his army was pathetic, but I adored him for giving us the feeling that Japan was big and scary. I gave many votes to him for that.
I felt that Sparta should be feared likewise and perfectioned his example. I builded up a story around my armies fighting each other, posting maps with false troop-positions (without ever claiming they were troop positions). Sent my spare units to my neighbours to help them, giving the idea that my army as big enough anyway, etc. etc.
My entire powertalk was part of the game.
I think that I can reveal it now, it's all in the past now.
Just doing this to show that 'powerplay diplomacy' is more then just flat out using your big army to criple other civs.
@Japan: you want me to use my big army to attack other civs?
Which civs?
I'm not going to criple or attack either Japan or Korea.
All other civs are too far away for now.
I tried to use some powerplay at Piercia/Rome, before you became the player. But sending an army big enough to wage a real war to another civ is not going to work. It'll take that army 20 turns to arrive, which will criple my economy. Not to mention that we're talking about Oldonia or Maya then. Both civs I don't want to criple either. (apart from being friends / allies).
Then I can send an army to Piercia or Rome or the NAtives. I need many galleys for that, and once again 20 something turns.
Making war is not an option at this stage of the game. I could most probably easily destroy Korea, Japan and Maya at this moment, but I really don't want to do that. I'd rather be at good terms with them, and keep them as my friends. I think the value of that is much bigger. Not to mention that I don't need more lebensraum.
If I go to war there need to be in-game reasons for that. Not just "going to war with a bigger opponent".
(A shake smilie would be so much better.
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