Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread III]

[Robert]

Score table:

Position		Story	Diplo	Mili	Score	Total	Voted	Dif
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01.(01)(05) Persia	16(--)	16(--)	15(--)	14(+1)	61(+1)	xxxx	+1
02.(03)(03) Rome	12(--)	18(--)	18(--)	12(-4)	60(-4)	xxxx	-1
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03.(04)(01) Greece 	17(--)	11(-1)	13(+1)	16(+5)	57(+5)	xxxx	--
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04.(06)(09) Vikings	14(--)	13(-1)	16(--)	11(+6)	54(+5)	xxxx	+2
05.(02)(02) Maya	10(+1)	10(-1)	17(--)	15(+1)	52(+1)	xxxx	--
06.(05)(03) Korea	18(--)	17(--)	12(-2)	03(--)	50(-2)	xxxx	-3
07.(07)(07) Khmer	13(+2)	12(+2)	06(-2)	18(--)	49(+2)	xxxx	--
07.(10)(08) Portug	07(+2)	15(+2)	10(--)	17(--)	49(+4)	--xx	-1
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09.(12)(14) Japan	15(--)	08(+5)	14(-2)	02(+1)	39(+6)	xxxx	+2
10.(08)(06) Metal	12(-1)	7(-2)	11(+3)	08(-1)	38(-1)	xxxx	--
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11.(09)(12) Natives	05(-2)	15(-1)	07(-1)	7(-5)	34(-9)	xx-x	-2
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12.(14)(14) Spain	07(+2)	07(+1)	06(-2)	10(--)	30(+1)	xxxx	+2
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13.(18)(17) England	08(-1)	09(--)	06(-2)	04(-3)	27(-6)	xxxx	-1
13.(10)(11) Russia	09(-1)	03(-1)	06(-2)	09(+3)	27(-1)	x---	+3
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15.(13)(18) Inca	03(-2)	02(-1)	06(-2)	13(-2)	24(-7)	----	-2
16.(16)(10) America	03(-2)	02(-1)	10(-1)	06(-3)	21(-7)	-xx-	-1
16.(17)(13) HRE		05(-2)	04(-1)	06(-2)	06(+2)	21(-3)	-xx-	+2
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18.(15)(16) Celts	03(-2)	05(-2)	08(-1)	01(-2)	17(-7)	xxxx	--
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[OzzyKP]

Thanks CS.


Though... if I understand things correctly, America, Russia, Inca and HRE didn't vote this round, so shouldn't they all have the same points for diplomacy, military and storytelling? I.E. very few?

[Robert]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Thanks CS.


Though... if I understand things correctly, America, Russia, Inca and HRE didn't vote this round, so shouldn't they all have the same points for diplomacy, military and storytelling? I.E. very few?

No, some of them have voted in earlier months and received votes back then.
If you don't vote for month x you can't get votes in month x. But if you one month earlier did vote for month y then you could get votes for y as well.

Example:
Zulu: July: 6 votes, August: 8 votes, September: 3 votes
Kenya: July: 12 votes, August: 2 votes, September: 8 votes

Zulu did not vote in August
Kenya did not vote in August and September

Total votes for Zulu: 9 (july + september)
Total votes for Kenya: 12 (july only)

[Pitboss Persia]

Good news

But... now that i think about it, wans't the original plan to vote every 100 turns instead of every month ?

[Pitboss Vikings]

Cyber why is the table broken into sections.

[Pitboss Celts]

Originally posted by Pitboss Vikings

We all need to remember that the out of game voting is going to determine the winner of this game, the in game score is only 25% of the total final score.

So some people put a lot of eeffort into the in game score others put an effort into the out of game score, story telling and diplo activities.

By not voting you are penalising the people who put extra effort in.

Just my opinion of course.

At this point, I could really care less who wins. Personally, I am playing to play and enjoying a different experience. I would rather someone win the game out right based on in-game mechanics than have to rely on getting points by turning into an author of a book.

If Russia doesn't want to vote why should he be made to feel like a lesser player. Would you rather he half-ass a vote based on reading a few posts? That's like voting along party lines without knowing what the candidate stands for. He isn't penalizing anyone by not voting except him self as he can't receive votes (not that he's likely to get votes since he was absent a majority of the time). Sounds to me somebody is upset they may not get any votes for all their hard work. Welcome to life. We don't always get recognized for hard work.

I guess I'm a horrible person because I've never read any story you've posted and not given you a vote for storytelling even though every page in the story threads probably has 3-4 posts by you. Sorry for penalizing you.

[Pitboss Vikings]

So why did you join a DIPLO game then.,


Oh well. I give up, everyone else thinks it ok but this attitude stinks.



Your opinion is yours mine is mine,

I palying and posting as if this was a DIPLO game, DIPLO requires stories.


I have retyped this so many times , as i am angry , but i am refusing to post nasty things.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Pitboss Vikings
Cyber why is the table broken into sections.

Because it's easier to read it that way.
I try to group civs together based on their scores. You can see that way a bit easier how you're doing compared to other 'groups'.

[Pitboss Vikings]

doesnt matter any more anyway...

[The Capo]

I'm a little confused as to why people are getting points for the game score?

Why don't you just add the game score (total) at the end? Wouldn't that be better?

[The Capo]

And @ the Celts: Yeah, I don't say this much but Ras is correct. That's the point of the game, its a diplogame. Now I think a few things may be contributing to the stories being a bit over the top, and I am at fault just as much as anyone else. I keep saying you've got to read between the lines on my stories, and I think that is true, but a lot of the time (and even in my case) the stories aren't really purposeful.

For instance; and I am not trying to pick on Piercia because they have been getting the majority of the story votes, and from me as well, but some of their stories have nothing to do with what their country is doing in the game. The whole storyline between Sinjeong and Gang Jo that I wrote, again, had nothing to do with what was going on in the game. Now, that said; these stories are necessary to the point that they allow for a "change" in leadership. Which I think is integral to a Diplogame. Because we want the countries to act differently throughout so we don't get stuck with alliances that last for thousands of years, we also want to emulate real-life (to a reasonable level of course) during these games.

Which brings me back to my main point; I think we sacraficed quality (and I don't mean quality in players, I mean quality in the diplogame itself) by having too many players. What this does is create way more stories than normal (usually diplogames have around 10 civs, give or take), which means its more difficult to keep up with what is going on. I get that. Plus when you SET OUT to have a game with 18 players what you wind up doing is getting players who may not truly grasp what a diplogame is, which I think is the case in our situation.

Basically I think the best way to go about this is to do what we are doing with this understanding, from both sides of the isle. The "hardcore" diplogamers need to understand that not everyone is going to care as much as they are, and the "non-diplogamers" (I don't know what else to call them really) need to understand that this is a specific genre that many of these players really like, and have been playing for a while. So yeah, they WILL post a lot, and if you want to keep up with what is going on diplomatically/politically it may get boring and tedious. Its up to you if you want to read the posts/know what's going on. But I realize that with so many players, and a lot of whom I believe didn't realize how deep this was going to get when they signed up, we need to both realize the limitations and expectations of both sides here.

So if people don't vote they don't vote, I don't think the deadline should be expanded. If people don't want to vote that should be up to them. Personally I didn't have a vote for all six positions last time, and Cyber can attest to this. So I don't think you have to turn in full votes, so long as you explain why you didn't you will still get the points that you earned.

I think in future diplogames it will be important to make sure that all of the players are going to post regularly, if that's what you want in the game, rather than trying to fill 18 slots.

Just some thoughts.

Peace.

[Robert]

Originally posted by The Capo
I'm a little confused as to why people are getting points for the game score?

Why don't you just add the game score (total) at the end? Wouldn't that be better?

That's what'll happen. In the end only the final gamescore will count.
This is just an in-between score. (like all scores are in between scores. You asked for in-between updates, that's why I give them.) (and it takes me about 2 hour to create every month. Maybe you should also know that as well. And answering all those questions you and Ras are asking about every game rule and every possible exploit and every posible fraud and every possible whatever costs me maybe 6 hours per week, maybe you should know that as well)

(I hope that one day I'll get an award for answering all your billions of questions in a very calm way.)

(It's 1am here, I have to finish a review of an enquete that had to be finished 'today' (as in 'yesteday'). I wasted about 3 hours today on BtP stuff, that's why I'm responding a bit irritated, just letting you know)

[Robert]

by having too many players.

I've been in many diplogames and in every diplogames we had these same debates. No matter if there were 5, 9, 12 or 18 players.

Can you please finally stop mentioning your 'there are too many players' tune? It bores me and it's untrue.

Like I said, it's 1.03am overhere and I'm not as polite as I usually try to be. (at 3am I can be even more unpolite, ask Toni!)

It all comes down to this: you and Ras are 24/7 busy complaining about the activity of other players, about the way some people may or may no rely too much on game score, if the rules are good enough, etc. etc.

I can very well understand that some people stopped reading all those posts in the org thread. It's just because they drown in the flood of useless posts about anything and everything.

Maybe I should start removing all this crap from this thread, but that'll cost another 1 hour per day. The moment is coming pretty close though that I stop responding to any of these time consuming every-repeating posts that sing the same tune all the time.

Man, I'm really not a nice guy at 1.06am
Fortunately I'm not drinker, otherwise I had to apologize tomorrow morning.

[Pitboss Vikings]

yep lets blame raz for the fact we got a player who openly admits he isnt palying diplo. he doesnt read the stories that jnot only myself but others put time and effort into each day. So yeah it all my fault you extended invitations to play a diplo game to people who dont care about diplo

[The Capo]

I totally agree with Ras, and nobody is asking YOU to respond to this stuff.

Except for my score question and all you had to do was say "Yes Capo, we don't give monthly points for the score, its just the score for the month."

Even then though, doesn't that mean there is no point to include the civscore-score in the first place? I'm just asking a pertinent question.

And nobody told you to respond to this stuff at 1 am, so cry me a river.

Besides all of that, my point remains. I don't think there is a finite number of people that make a diplogame good, my point is that with the amount of people we have and the inability of people to keep up with the posts, or their lack of interest, it IS IN FACT too many people. That's just a fact. If you have people who cant' read all of the posts, and people who don't post at all and readily admit they never have posted then what you have is a situation where you have people who honestly shouldn't be in the game. I'm sorry you feel like this is falling upon your shoulders, but it really isn't. yes you do a lot for the game, and we all applaud you for that, but you don't have to assume everyone expects you to make all of the decisions, nor does everybody hold you responsible. That post I made was not directed at YOU, it was just some things I thought were the case and some issues I thought we had.

And I've said this before, and will continue to say that this is the first big pitboss diplogame. So we are going to have growing pains, and we are going to have to learn lessons from this. So being defensive doesn't help that cause, being defensive HURTS that cause. I am simply stating my observations, and there is nothing wrong with that. And if you are going to go around and delete posts that have people's positions, thoughts and observations you're nothing more than an *******.

Just some thoughts.