The Next Diplo Style Game Discussion

[Rasputin]

Capo been doing some work on a mod for a DIPLO style game, new leaders and some different traits.

The question remains of course is what is a DIPLO STYLE game.

Ozzy has tryed to answer this in his DIPLO FAQ but it speaks of old CIV2 and CIV3 fashioned mechanics, obviosuly we need an update to the CIV4 game mechanics.

I know what DIPLO once was, but it has evolved into something different, as all things do over time. neither makes it wrong or right, just different


So before beginning a new DIPLO , i think we need to dicuss what is DIPLO?

Once that is sorted we can then compare Capos mod as to whether it adds or distracts from what DIPLO is.

Despite some peoples theories , i do believe PITBOSS is ok to be used for DIPLO games. But i think that any game that gets to end of BC period and moves into AD without discovering any government improvemtns in research is just moving too slowly.

Perhaps it is the unbalance caused by the different stsarting techs under different difficulty settings. In the current game my Vikings had not one WORKER improvement tech to begingame, this caught me out a lot as every other gane i played vikings always began with at least one thing the worker could do once built even if it ws just building a road or a farm.

I think we need to look deeply into map design. The placement of tribes starting positions etc. Make some guidleines for that and then let the map maker know the guidleines.

Resource placement is another thing to be looked at.

Early resources are critical. and can be very unblancing in game if a tribe has no IRON . COPPER or HORSES.

just need to start the discussions.

WHAT IS DIPLO?

[The Capo]

A few words regarding "my" mod before I get into the Diplo aspect of this; I am not adding new traits, there are new trait combinations but no new traits. The new leaders are where these combos will come into play. Secondly the only additions to this mod will be to make going to space more difficult (something you had asked for), to add a built in voting system (something we are doing anyway and something you appear to support) and then adding an inquisitor unit. The ONLY difference, then, is that you will have the ability to purge your cities (maybe other civs' cities too, we haven't got to that point) of other unwanted religions. Other than those changes it is a regular game of civilization. So I would contend that the mod will do nothing to change the actual gameplay.

That said let's talk about Diplogames. Honestly I don't think anything has changed since we've played on Civ2 other than the game itself. To describe this I'll to explain what a diplogame is to me; I consider a diplogame a regular multiplayer game of civ where the players attempt to play out the whole game (ie until someone wins a victory other than conquest or until the time runs out) utilizing diplomacy, in all eras, that goes beyond the regular abilities of the civilization diplomatic engine. This includes complex treaties, loans, demilitarized zones, the concept of a "homeland," secret alliances, secret deals, international conventions, debates, politics, et cetera. Although I don't consider it NECESSARY these extracurricular activities (if you will) allow for storylines and characters to be used to further and enhance the goals espoused by the players. And of course this special blend of politics is reported in a thread for everyone to see/enjoy. That's what I think it is. I don't know if that makes sense to everyone, but I don't really see how Civ4 changes any of this.

As far as Pitboss goes. When I say I think its because of the format I don't mean you don't like pitboss games, or Diplogames can't be played as pitboss games. I just think some of us are used to a week between sessions, where particular issues get debated and debated and the game doesn't progress for that whole week. So there is more focus on particular issues sometimes before other things come into play. In a pitboss game, an issue can arise, turns can go by without it getting resolved and thus it isn't treated with as much attention. Therefore certain players get upset that issues they consider important are not considered important by other players who have other things to do that turn. That's all I'm saying. I think because there isn't that week in between the politics get handled differently, or sometimes get ignored. That's why I think there is a difference, I don't think you don't like playing pitboss, I think you don't like not getting a reply when you think you expect one. In a game where a week went by before the next session you were probably (a) more likely to get a response before the next time you played and (b) probably more patient yourself about it.

[Rasputin]

Good stuff Capo, that what this thread needs to discuss, what is DIPLO.

So to Capo it a way of ensuring all nations surivve to the end , perhaps to see someone blast off to Alpha Centuri. Surving in a diplomatic fashion.

Ok any others.


Surely others have a point of view on what DIPLO is.

This is for the next game guys. So please step forward and let your opinions be known.

I know Ozzy has some deep thoughts on this issue.

Will take a long time to sort out the concept and then the mod and stuff so now is the time

[Pitboss Korea]

The point of keeping everyone around isn't going to Alpha Centauri, the point of keeping everyone around is for the diplomatic aspect and so it doesn't turn into a conquest game. I know I will never make it to AC, not with guys like Ozzy and deity around, but I think you're missing my point as to why I think everyone should survive to the end. I always considered it a rule in a diplogame never to conquer anyone.

[Rasputin]

Oh i agree Capo whole heartedly.

DIPLO style does normally mean no total conquest.

I guess the question is , is the new VOTING system of Cybers a better way to announce a winner. or is the first to AC still the winner.

I think thesse things will eventually be used to modify the current FAQ.

[Pitboss Korea]

I'm pretty sure that voting has replaced AC as the officially victory condition in a Diplogame, so that part of the debate is over with, as far as I can tell. I think the main issue now is how exactly those votes will be tabulated, and insofar as I can tell we've got it in this game. MMC is already working on an in-game voting mechanism which we will be adding to my Diplogame mod, so if you think the system is broken you better fix it quick because I'm pretty sure MMC is using the same format that Cybershy is using. And this mod is a lot of work, on both of our parts, so if you are concerned you should probably get on it 'hoss.

[Pitboss Korea]

And speaking of the FAQ; Where the hell were you when I was trying to get a group together to update it?!?!?!

[Rasputin]

was too busy in a game. now i got more time to think clearly.

I like the idea of the ingame voting, but jsut concernced on the weighting factor on VOTES versus in game pts.

Something similar to the Beyond The Pit game rules would be good IMHO

[Pitboss Korea]

That's what he's doing, its the same thing as beyond the pit voting rules except for instead of sending an e-mail to CS you get a prompt every X amount of turns and vote on the categories. Obviously this is going to take a lot of work, but we're working on it. Well I haven't really done anything yet, but MMC is working on it.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Rasputin
was too busy in a game. now i got more time to think clearly.

I like the idea of the ingame voting, but jsut concernced on the weighting factor on VOTES versus in game pts.

What are you exactly concerned about?
I think that right now there's a perfect ballance between the in-game score and the 3 diplo-categories. (so that each of the 4 category has a weigh of 25% )

My Philosophy is that you should not compare in-game points to votes, but compare your position in the game-score to your position in the voting-categories.

That way there are 4x18 positions to compare.
Nobody can win by dominating in just 1 category. You need to be good in all 4 categories to win.

Even if you win 3 categories then you must at least be average at the 4th category to win. (3x18=54, the current top-5 players already have 56-60 points in BtP)

[The Capo]

Yeah, I think part of BtP's allure is that it is one of, if not THE, first pitboss diplogame. On top of that it is the first one with 18 players and the first one where we are using this voting system, which I think has been going well so far. So honestly I think the debate over the style of diplogames should be hushed for now. I am pretty confident we are doing well with this.

I am quasi-interested in this new diplogame coming up, the European future one or whatever, but I'm a little confused about the format and what exactly the scenario is, but it seems to be getting some interest. Also with the new mod we are going to include an Earth scenario and a Europe scenario too. I don't really know what your specific concerns are with diplogames, I think they are fine as they are. There probably should be some fine tuning as it pertains to the rules and all, but I don't think we're far from where we want to be as a genre.

[OzzyKP]

I think Capo's description in his first post is a pretty good summation of the concept. I don't think that bit needs to be changed from the FAQ much at all. I don't agree in the slightest with Raz that Diplo has changed much at all since Civ2. Civ4 is obviously a different game, so that is different, the voting system is new (and a big improvement over the old), and pitboss is another new change (and unfortunately necessary). But these are just different conditions. You can play a Diplo game in Alpha Centauri and still have it be a diplogame. These new elements enhance the game, but doesn't change what "diplo" means.

I'd very much like to see what Raz is actually talking about with his constant complaining that diplo has been corrupted since the glory days he remembers.

As for the voting system, I'd like to see a balance between in-game and out of game points. This is what I did with my original score system. CS's system is far simplified which may be a good thing, I'm not sure, but I think additional weight should be given to the in-game score.

[The Capo]

I agree with everything Ozzy just said.

Raz, I am not trying to get on your case I legitimately want to know the answer to this, can you please explain what you mean when you say Diplogames have changed?

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by CyberShy


What are you exactly concerned about?
I think that right now there's a perfect ballance between the in-game score and the 3 diplo-categories. (so that each of the 4 category has a weigh of 25% )

My Philosophy is that you should not compare in-game points to votes, but compare your position in the game-score to your position in the voting-categories.

That way there are 4x18 positions to compare.
Nobody can win by dominating in just 1 category. You need to be good in all 4 categories to win.

Even if you win 3 categories then you must at least be average at the 4th category to win. (3x18=54, the current top-5 players already have 56-60 points in BtP)

You get me worng Cyber, i like your balnce. my concern is to make sure it remains that way.

[Rasputin]

obviously i am worng so will no longer pursue this.