Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Thread] [Warfare-Turn Timer Issue Discussion]

[The Capo]

There is no reason to stop discussing the rules, if we are ever going to play future diplogames on pitboss and this rule is an issue it should be discussed so that everyone gets a say and we come up with something. If we can't come up with something there's no harm in that. A lot of these people are upset about other threads getting spammed (or what they consider getting spammed) so I put this one together. So feel free to discuss the issue. Remember there will be diplogames besides beyond the pit, so this doesn't ONLY apply to that game, especially since it seems we aren't going to make a difference in that game either.

These dumb arguments are the same thing that happens in American politics; people revert to name calling and belittling people, and nothing substantial gets done, EVER. So, if you think the issue needs further discussion feel free to discuss it. I'll put my two cents in every now and then.

I just don't want what happened to the other threads to happen to this one, so let's try and stay on message.

[MMC]

In some ways, I agree with both Capo and Cyber in this matter. Politics is politics regardless of the country you come from. For every 3 people you have, you'll always get at least 4 different opinions.

With this game (Beyond the Pit I), we should stick with the rles we have, and se how they pan out. If they truely don't work by the end of the game, then we know what needs changing for the next game. If anything game-breaking comes up before the end of the game, then we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

[Pitboss Japan]

Originally posted by MMC


With this game (Beyond the Pit I), we should stick with the rles we have, and se how they pan out. If they truely don't work by the end of the game, then we know what needs changing for the next game. If anything game-breaking comes up before the end of the game, then we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

i compleatly agree 90%. for now lets just have fun and leave the rules for after the game. though part of me doesn't like to deal with problems as they come but what other chioce is there?

[Robert]

- There are people who don't like the rule as it stands

I'm sure that out of 18 players there are always a few players who don't like a certain rule.

- We lost a player because of it

No, we did not.
We lost jon because he had a different idea of what a diplogame was. He thought that every argument would be solved diplomatical. He didn't knew that war was a part of diplogaming.

And to say it again: the Maya never got any benefit from their double move. Therefor their double move was not an exploit.

The problem was that the Maya took a Korean worker while Korea stopped playing since it thought that we would reload the turn. That's why the Mayans had to return the worker.

I really hope that we can end these false rumors now.

- You (CS) didn't like that, posts were deleted

I haven't deleted posts in weeks in the BTP threads.
I used a few examples of things that could be debated in the org thread.
Some of you guys misinterpretated me that I wanted to discuss the item at that very moment, and started to debate it.

Then I said that it was an example, not a real point of debate at that moment.

As a matter of fact, since listed it as an item that could be debated in the org thread I apparantly don't have any problems with debating it in the org thread.

- They began to complain that their posts were getting deleted

Only spam posts were deleted in the org thread. As far as I know no posts were deleted regarding this subject.

- I made this thread so they can talk about it HERE

Fine with me.

- How does this not make sense to you two?

It does make sence but most of it is simply not true.

There is no reason to stop discussing the rules, if we are ever going to play future diplogames on pitboss and this rule is an issue it should be discussed so that everyone gets a say and we come up with something.

Yes, there is a reason to stop discussing about a rule. That reason is: every discussion needs to end one day. Otherwise it will hurt the game.

I'd say: discuss the rule again at the beginning of next game.

If we can't come up with something there's no harm in that. A lot of these people are upset about other threads getting spammed (or what they consider getting spammed) so I put this one together.

The people are mostly upset because of the spam. Not because of the debates. Though the eternally ongoing debates that never seem to end eventhough the grande majority has already spoken in favor of the current solution does raise some irritation as well indeed.

So feel free to discuss the issue. Remember there will be diplogames besides beyond the pit, so this doesn't ONLY apply to that game, especially since it seems we aren't going to make a difference in that game either

For that reason it's very good that you created a discussion thread outside the BtP threads.

revert to name calling and belittling people, and nothing substantial gets done, EVER.

No name calling happened and we did something substantial. We have the 33% rule. That's a very solid and clear rule.

Maybe if during any next war it appears that the current rule is not working, we may reconsider it. But right now there's no reason to reconsider it, as far as I can see. It never failed. (if you think it failed in the Korean/Mayan war, reread the bold-red part I typed above.)

[Pitboss Korea]

Cybershy, I'm sorry but you picking apart my post is pretty flawed itself. I won't go through and quote you, because that's annoying and you can easliy put my comments out of context, which you have. The list I made was to explain why I made the thread, not to give a history of what actually happened. It is a list of perceptions that caused things to happen that caused me to make this thread, so here goes;

- You're first point is that there are always people who don't agree with the rules. Yeah, there are and they deserve to say so. In fact you're practically repeating what I said there.

- I have never blamed the Mayans for what happened, I simply said we lost a player because of it. And we did lose a player because of it. And you keep saying the Mayans didn't gain anything so it wasn't an exploit. They got a worker. That may not be a city, a tech, or thousands of gold but it is SOMETHING. So stop pretending like the guy didn't leave because of that incident, if that didn't happen I wouldn't be talking to you from this Screen Name right now! And they aren't rumors CS.

- I have no way of knowing who PHYSICALLY deleted the posts, but you were the most vocal against it, so when I sad "[CS] didn't like it, posts were deleted" those statements were both true. You didn't like what was going on, AND posts WERE deleted. And regardless of what you deleted was spam or not, and sometimes it wasn't, it was still deleted and people still complained about it. Just because you think they're wrong about it doesn't make MY statement any less true.

- You claim that discussing this issue hurts the game, I think that deleting people's posts about it, calling it spam, and then saying they shouldn't even have a seperate thread for it is more harmful to the game than simply discussing it. You've got to give an avenue of dissent to people or their dissent will become worse. I totally disagree with you on this issue and it is the main reason I am posting right now. If you don't let people talk about an issue they disagree with THAT will ruin the game. People will catch feelings, people will think they don't get a say and people will take it personally towards you. Just put yourself in Raz' shoes. If Raz went around telling you to stop spamming threads when you were trying to bring up a game issue you thought needed more discussion you'd be pretty sour at him too.

- There has certainly been name calling; idiot, moron, Nazi, @$$hole, and that is just what I can remember off the top of my head. And by substantial I meant "someting of substance" not what your 33% rule is. You can't allow for it to happen and then judge what the benefits were, that isn't fair. That's like saying if someone tries to murder someone else and fails, no blood no foul. Try and rob a bank, and you fail, no problem feel free to try again next time. That's the point I think Raz and co. are trying to make, they want a punishment to make sure it doesn't happen. In a game of 18 players, some of which are probably new, and it has already been proven you had players who "didn't understand diplogames," you're probably bound to run accross some cheating, lying, deceitful, amibitious ******* who only wants to win and then after you make contact with deity's tribe, someone else may come around and actually cheat! That's another problem with anonymous play too, I take any opportunity to bash it, the other players won't know who did what. Because so far, even though I've asked you, you haven't told me who the Korean player was, you've referred to him as Jon, but who is that? We can't stay anonymous forever, and we shouldn't.

I didn't intend on the post being so long, it kinda got away with me. But this is what I think, and this is why I think people are getting angry with you and Ozzy. You both know I love you guys, but people don't like it when they are being lorded over, especially at a free forum site about a nerd's game.

[Toni]

For the record I 100% support CyberShy!

Since the very first moment he came up with the idea of this game he has been ONLY right righ rig ri r......!

That includes:

* Great Host
* Great Organizer
* Always Helpful

All of this WHILE having a new baby and moving to a new home.

CS you are alright in my book

[Toni]

you've referred to him as Jon, but who is that

Capo that is his name Jon, an Aussie player who used to play with Deity and others from down under every weekend.

[The Capo]

Look, I'm not trashing Cybershy for what he's put into this game, in fact I gave Raz the what-for earlier about trashing CS. I am just saying that there's no reason to think talking about the issue is going to harm the game. And by who is Jon what I really meant was "how do I contact him" because, at the begining, I wanted to see what his plans were so I could infuse them in my game. Nobody told me, so I couldn't do that. That's all I meant. I think you should only be anonymous as long a the game goes or until you are out of the game. If anyone leaves their identity should be revealed, when the game ends our identities should be revealed, etc.

That's all.

[Pitboss Japan]

WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW WHO i AM CAPO???

[Pitboss Vikings]

Originally posted by Toni


Capo that is his name Jon, an Aussie player who used to play with Deity and others from down under every weekend.

I would love to see a post from Jon saying why he actually left.

Was it because of the Mayan attack.

Was it because of th double move .

Was it because the community took no action over a breach of the rules.

Please Deity get jon in here to place his reasons for leaving the game.

If he left simply becasue he thought that war would never occur then i will stop this relentless effort to wake the community up.

[Pitboss Korea]

Originally posted by Pitboss Japan
WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW WHO i AM CAPO???

You either misunderstood what I said, or you're just being an ass.

I said we should know who everyone is after they stop playing or after the game is over. So if that's what you meant yes I would like to know who you are after the game is over. What's wrong with that?

[Pitboss Japan]

YES I'M BEING AN ASS AND NO I DON'T SEE THE HARM IN TELLING WHO WE ARE AT THE END. I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW WHO CYBER IS PLAYING AS. WHAT IF HE IS THE MAYANS AND DEFENDS THEM BECAUSE THATS HIS CIV.

[The Capo]

Exactly. We are agreeing, so why are we arguing?

Or are you just typing in caps for no reason?

[Pitboss Vikings]

we must reveal who everyone was at end . it is a must

As for Cyber i was particularly fond of the idea he was the Wyandots leader. but then i changed my mind.

Perhaps before we reveal everyone at end of game, we al ltry and pick who was wh oand why we think that way.

Not now but later after game done.

[Pitboss Japan]

i'n not arguing i just keep forgetting to take the caps lock off