Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread II]

[Pinchak]

Alas, you can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but never all of the people all of the time.

I like my quote better, and I think it applies here...

"There is more than one way to skin a cat, but only one best way."

[MMC]

Actually my motto in life is:

Two wrongs may not make a right, but three lefts certainly do.

I could also apply that one here too

[Pitboss Khmer]

Originally posted by Pitboss Rome

26 from Population
43 from Land
137 from Technology
16 from Wonders

42 from Population
47 from Land
143 from Technology
32 from Wonders

[Robert]

Only 4 days left for voting.

I've received votes from:
- Holy roman empire
- Vikings
- Persia
- Korea
- Portugal (few days too early...)

Please cast your votes in time.

[Pitboss Greece]

27 from population
43 from land
101 from technology
16 from wonders

[Robert]

Originally posted by Pitboss Vikings
ok i cannot access the gmail account

username =viking ???

I think it's "vikings"

Currently the turns last for about 22 hours.
The turn timer is delayed everytime someone logs in. A turn timer of 19 hours means 21,5 - 22,5 hour turns.

[Pitboss Rome]

I would just like to ask the diplo community a question.


Do you think I have gone too far in the war with Portugal? I've been trying to negotiate a peace (since my objectives have been complete, I have captured a city and Piercia will raze the offending city that sparked the war soon) but Portugal says I'm out to destroy them and has ignored my deal that would give them 2 settlers to compensate for their lost cities and free gold (the resource). I don't quite understand him, he's still the top civ... Am I doing something wrong by diplo standards?


How many cities can change hands in a diplo game? What is the usual scale of war? How do you deal with someone who is unwilling to negotiate despite this being the best course of action?

[Robert]

Since portugal is the leading civ (score-wise) even after what you've done to him I think that we can't say that you have destroyed the fun for him in this game.

So I'd say: no.

If you would destroy 2 cities of the Oldonians or the Japanese, that would be too far indeed.

Just be reasonable in your demands of course. I think that if you're not reasonable enough other civs will start to side with Portugal anyway.

Maybe you guys should hold peace-negotiations in public to make the demands and the offers visible for everyone.

[Pitboss Korea]

I don't think there is a rule for this. Its up to Portugal to use diplomacy to get opinion in their favor. Its up to Portugal to negotiate peace with you if he wants to, you can't go around snubbing people and then cry when they hit you back. That's not how this works. Portugal should handle this diplomatically. I also think that the *way* you've reacted to them is very Roman by the way.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Pitboss Rome
I would just like to ask the diplo community a question.


Do you think I have gone too far in the war with Portugal? I've been trying to negotiate a peace (since my objectives have been complete, I have captured a city and Piercia will raze the offending city that sparked the war soon) but Portugal says I'm out to destroy them and has ignored my deal that would give them 2 settlers to compensate for their lost cities and free gold (the resource). I don't quite understand him, he's still the top civ... Am I doing something wrong by diplo standards?


How many cities can change hands in a diplo game? What is the usual scale of war? How do you deal with someone who is unwilling to negotiate despite this being the best course of action?

Naw, you're being way too generous. Keep after them.

Look at the war(s) I had with the Carpathians in HOTW12. In that game they started it and they were a much, much bigger civ. (he was in 4th place and I was in last place). But he underestimated my war skill and tenacity. We fought and I acheived stunning victory after stunning victory.

I took his capitol, I took several other cities as well. Each step along the way I asked to negotiate. I started with fairly generous terms (though advantageous to me, since I was both the victim and the victor). He was in disbelief that he was losing to a runt civ and refused to negotiate or even communicate.

So I was faced with a choice. Do I just unilaterally stop invading him, lose the momentum I have in the war, and sit around and wait for him to build up his forces and counter attack? Or do I keep pressing while I have the advantage until he finally agrees to negotiate?

I kept going. But at every step I pressed for peace.

He still refused to negotiate, but finally I lost the sympathy of the world. They had sided with me when the big civ had invaded my tiny one. But now that I was utterly crushing the big civ, public opinion changed. So this is a lesson for you. How much can you gain through continued war, and how much could you lose by losing support internationally? Are there other powers able to stab you in the back and turn the tide of the war?

Since I am a stubborn son of a ***** I pressed on and ended up at war with one of the "super powers" in the game, Mongolia. Eventually I stopped the war, but only because the human player missed a session or two. Attacking the AI is a big no-no in diplogames.

When he came back, he still refused to negotiate a final peace, but immediately started building up an army (as I suspected he would). And invaded me... again. I kicked his ass... again.

Now at last he negotiated peace. It was a long, heated process and most countries in the game got involved in it. Trying to get concessions from both sides. We were both stubborn sons of *****es. Eventually though we agreed to a plan that suited us both well. I claimed victory, and so did Carpathia.

I ended up taking several cities from him in the final analysis. One of which was his former capitol (but wasn't his original capitol, he moved his palace to be right on my borders, so I never considered it the same as his true capitol). One sticking point though was the status of a holy city that Carpathia owned/founded. I captured it in the war and really wanted to keep it, but eventually I gave in and let him have it. But I got 50% of the gold income however.

So there is a trade off. On the one hand I got a lot out of the war, on the other hand I pissed off much of the world. Most troubling though is the Carpathian player got frustrated and quit. I think we need to talk to him in more detail to explain why, since in my opinion I didn't cripple him and he had more than enough land and prospects (including plenty of cities in the new world) to be a competitive civ. But obviously he disagreed. So... it is a fine line there and a difficult one sometimes.

At all times we need to be aware of the other player. Do what you have to in the war, there aren't any hard-fast limits, but you never want to cripple the other player or make the game unfun. Now granted, if someone is in first place and you knock him down to 7th place (out of 18) he might get mad and think that the game is no longer fun, but in my opinion he is a damn cry baby, not everyone can be first. But again, it is a difficult balance.

And sorry to Maya, there aren't any absolutes or clear laws and rules to this. But with everything there are laws and there are interpretations of laws. Even when laws are written down explicitly we still have a need for expensive lawyers and long trials. So no matter how many rules we have there are going to be arguments. So make your case.

[Pitboss Portugal]

I am very disappointed after what Rome just said.

HE COMES out and tries to make it sound that he is the victim here.

“I've been trying to negotiate a peace”

Please do not make me start copy pasting your real pm letters, for people to see what you really have been doing.

He has fired at me the last couple of days demand after demand. The last 3-4 days I have been accepting them just to stop this war. But then he comes back and SAYS no to what he himself just offered and goes far asking a new one.

Now trying to come out nice and innocent he tells the community that I haven’t accepted his peace offer, which was offered just 1hr ago. I left for work damn it, when do you want me to answer it in my car while driving 85miles.

For the record I am the one pushing for peace that last couple of days not Rome. Of course now that he has what he wants he wants peace and makes it sounds lie I don’t

And this so called peace offer, which seems reasonable, how many ones before that which you yourself offered YOU declined once I said yes and brought even closer your legions to my kingdom?

Last but not least everyone following this maybe remember readying that Rome said I will attack you if you do not respond to me by 50BC. He had my answer before that year!! But he attacked anyway.

My goal writing this was to show you’re the real facts.

[Pitboss Portugal]

I don't think there is a rule for this. Its up to Portugal to use diplomacy to get opinion in their favor. Its up to Portugal to negotiate peace with you if he wants to, you can't go around snubbing people and then cry when they hit you back.

Korea i haven't snubbed anyone and I am not crying. You have of course the right to say your opinion but at least know the facts.

Ozzy how can you compare me to Carpathia, when I am not the attacker and agressor. What u did back in HOTW 12 was self defence against him. Portugal hasn't said one bad thing towards Rome for 3000 years.

And Korea you have no idea how much diplomacy there has been going on, but Rome changes his mind every time.

[Pitboss Portugal]

How do you deal with someone who is unwilling to negotiate

Rome I hope you aren't serious, just check how many pm's you have had from me in the last week

[Pitboss Portugal]

There is no debate here, but Rome is twisting the facts just tooo much. And that is why I am posting.

[Pitboss Portugal]

Portugal has never talked to Greece due to having no contact with them.

Rome you just don't know when to stop do you?