MP strategies.

[Dinner]

Well, let's hear them. I've noticed that cav units seem to be the end all and be all of the civ game and the first to get them usually wins. Not having horses is the kiss of death since horsemen are effectively immortal. The winning stategy usually seems to be to get as many of the first three early religions as possible followed by b-lining to bronze working to get axemen then rushing to cav units. You want to build up cav units before the others get them since you can then over run 2-3 other civs. Most games follow this format.

Of the wonders the pyramids seem to be the most valuable since those free engineers allow you to snag a few more wonders plus the pyramids never expire. You always get to switch civics without anarchy.

[starchgrain]

If I can't secure horses I build lots of solid defensive units, build few cities and adopt a defensive position if I can't go to war early. I can concentrate on science and culture while the war minded civ lose time on military.

I also find it essential to make friends fast in the beginning.
I've played only Terra map so far.

I contact all players as soon as possible and try to see how they want to play. Depending on the answers, you can often steer your strategy accordingly. Also it's great fun to ask subtle questions trying to get useful info. Especially at the beginning.

I like the diplomatic and psycholigical part of MP.
Say you are on the north of the continent. I try to ally with the civ to my south as fast as possible. Since this civ will be my buffer zone against eventual attacks, I promise to provide military in case of conflict and I DO HELP to keep my buffer in good shape. So early exploring is useful. I also send a couple of scouts during the whole game to keep my map updated.

In the games I have played so far, it seems that someone is always stuck in the middle of the land, with lots of common borders.

If you are in the middle, you have to act quickly or you are gonna get smashed sooner or later. You need to either expand to reach the coast or early war on the weakest player. And early war in MP needs to be diplomaticaly addresed because the other players will get nervous and might gang up on you.

Dealing against very aggressive players has been easy so far. I've always found at least one or two player willing to ally against him.

I have not seen any treasons yet but that would be cool. I always play with that in mind. "Just because you're paranoid does'nt mean they're not after you."

I have also noticed a cheap trick that some players try to do. When they call you to the diplomatic screen, ask them in the chat what they want before going to the diplo screen. Some players just want to see what tech you have, they dont say nothing, just take a look at your techs/ressources, and close the window.

oh and I have never been able to complete a game yet. Not me leaving but the others. So i don't play to win, I just try to make my game as dynamic as possible and enjoy the
much more refined possibilities compared to playing in SP.

[Dinner]

Yeah lots of people want to look at your techs so I hardly anwser the trade requests and instead just chat. Another bug I have discovered is that if you offer a trade, say a tech for a tech, and the other guy accepts then you can pull your tech back at the last second and still hit the accept trade button. this will result in you getting the other guy's tech but him getting nothing.

That's a bug or at least an exploit but many people seem to use it on MP.

[Martinus]

Actually you can check what techs other civs have that you don't (and vice versa) on the diplomacy screen, without a need to contact another civ. So people who just contact you to see your techs just waste your and their time.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Re: MP strategies.

Originally posted by Oerdin
Well, let's hear them. I've noticed that cav units seem to be the end all and be all of the civ game and the first to get them usually wins. Not having horses is the kiss of death since horsemen are effectively immortal. The winning stategy usually seems to be to get as many of the first three early religions as possible followed by b-lining to bronze working to get axemen then rushing to cav units. You want to build up cav units before the others get them since you can then over run 2-3 other civs. Most games follow this format.

Of the wonders the pyramids seem to be the most valuable since those free engineers allow you to snag a few more wonders plus the pyramids never expire. You always get to switch civics without anarchy.

Interesting. I'd love to see someone playing this way. Last I checked, spears made horse archers VERY mortal, pikes had a grand old time sticking knights, and the last cavalry that attacked a town with an upgraded rifle in it was splattered into so many pieces they still haven't identified what was horse and what was rider. It's easy to intercept them in your land, since anti-horse units move faster on roads than horses do in enemy territory.

Not switching civics without anarchy is a Spiritual trait bonus, and has nothing to do with the Pyramids.

Please take care to know what you're talking about before making sweeping, derisive pronouncements about a section of the game where you clearly lack definitive knowledge.

[Fried-Psitalon]

If you're interested in discussing proper MP strategies, may I reccomend examining the strategy forums over at C4P in the coming months. Apolyton's MP affiliate is a bit more of a specialist in that realm.

[Golden Bear]

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
If you're interested in discussing proper MP strategies, may I reccomend examining the strategy forums over at C4P in the coming months. Apolyton's MP affiliate is a bit more of a specialist in that realm.

C4P ? What/where is that if I may ask?

[Fried-Psitalon]

Civ 4 Players? The multiplayer community...

www.myleague.com/civ4players is the signup for the ladder itself and the ranking system.

civ4players.proboards44.com is the discussion forum area.

I think you'll find there are more than one or two Apolytonites over there nowadays.

[Dinner]

Re: Re: MP strategies.

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon

Interesting. I'd love to see someone playing this way. Last I checked, spears made horse archers VERY mortal, pikes had a grand old time sticking knights, and the last cavalry that attacked a town with an upgraded rifle in it was splattered into so many pieces they still haven't identified what was horse and what was rider. It's easy to intercept them in your land, since anti-horse units move faster on roads than horses do in enemy territory.

Not switching civics without anarchy is a Spiritual trait bonus, and has nothing to do with the Pyramids.

Please take care to know what you're talking about before making sweeping, derisive pronouncements about a section of the game where you clearly lack definitive knowledge.

First of all the stratey doesn't use horse archers or knights they use cav units. Second, I have found spears and pikes don't fair very well against cav units unless they are upgraded against firearms which isn't all that common. Lastly, if you have cav you have cannons if not arty so you pound the hell out of a city then take it with your cav then you simply plow the enemy over. Most MP games seem to go this way.

If someone plans ahead well enough they might be able to put up a good fight against the cav units but if you build enough of them to fight the enemy off them likely you'll fall further behind in the tech race since you'll need gold to support that large army. In the end you just need to make sure you trade techs or research techs fast enough that someone else doesn't get cav to far ahead of you or else you're toast.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Re: Re: Re: MP strategies.

Originally posted by Oerdin


First of all the stratey doesn't use horse archers or knights they use cav units. Second, I have found spears and pikes don't fair very well against cav units unless they are upgraded against firearms which isn't all that common.

Hmm. And here I thought Cavalry was a MOUNTED unit - and therefore a gunpowder promotion wouldn't do anything to them. Try Formation, rather than Pinch, and you'll find a result more concrete than pyschological. (Check for yourself. Mounted. Not Gunpowder. Formation. Not Pinch.)

Originally posted by Oerdin
Lastly, if you have cav you have cannons if not arty so you pound the hell out of a city then take it with your cav then you simply plow the enemy over. Most MP games seem to go this way.

Wow. You sure do know lots about the game. Last I checked, Cavalry required military tradition and gunpowder; since steel (cannons) is two techs more advanced than gunpowder, it's certainly not assumed. Many players beeline for one side or the other without taking a balanced approach, and some skip cavalry altogether for rifles and cannons. If you have artillery when you get to Cavalry, you have a serious error in your research methods. Check the tech chart. Learn the game. If your MP games are going that way, you need to start playing real competition.

Originally posted by Oerdin
If someone plans ahead well enough they might be able to put up a good fight against the cav units but if you build enough of them to fight the enemy off them likely you'll fall further behind in the tech race since you'll need gold to support that large army. In the end you just need to make sure you trade techs or research techs fast enough that someone else doesn't get cav to far ahead of you or else you're toast.

A pike on a forested mountain, a city on a hill, or a city with a significant cultural presence, has a very good chance - even odds - to beat a cavalry. Given the cost of the two units compared to one another, it would seem that cavalry that attack cities or strong positions guarded by pikes are a very bad choice. If you're using cannons to greatly soften the position, fine, but then what you're talking about isn't "immortal cavalry." What you're talking about is cavalry capitalizing on the efforts of a siege unit. That's combined arms, and that's intended.

Do the math. Learn the game. Mounted units have a place, but they're not godly. Every unit has a foil.

Spears beat Horse Archers beat Axes beat Spears.

Pikes beat Knights beat Macemen beat pikes.

And Rifles BEAT Cavalry, which beat grenadiers, which beat Rifles.

They're not a god unit. Not even close. If your opponents can't figure that out and stop playing Civ3, lucky you - but it's not a game design problem by any means.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
If you're interested in discussing proper MP strategies, may I reccomend examining the strategy forums over at C4P in the coming months. Apolyton's MP affiliate is a bit more of a specialist in that realm.

It's a nice site but unless I'm looking in the wrong place there are hardly any discussions of strategy there.

And don't be such a big meanie to poor Oerdin.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Well, most of the strategy discussions are still forming. C3P's strategy area is quite large - C4P's will be as it develops.

[DrSpike]

I had a look at the Civ3 one actually for comparison, and didn't think it was that busy. I was kinda hoping more strategy discussions would develop here.

I also looked at the Civ3 ladder. I notice there are still many more active people on the Civ3 ladder, and the Civ4 ladder isn't growing as fast as I would expect now that it's out almost everywhere. I guess the patch might help in this regard though.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Well, it takes time for people to switch over, become acquainted, etc, etc. A lot of the C3C Ladder folks are still playing a lot of SP.

Compared to the growth of C3P, C4P is actually growing quite swiftly.

The C3P ladder strategy section MAY - not sure, but I think it was - have been pruned. It used to be pretty deep. Bear in mind it's definitely a smaller community than Apolyton's, though. It's still a great deal more MP activity than we see here.

[MasterDave]

I had a lot of trouble joining gamespy games this weekend, but I did manage to host one game that along pretty far before we all crashed and then nobody came back. In this game we disabled tech trading. This prevented people from "spying" out one's techs in the diplo screen, as they do not appear there when you use this option. It also prevented people from getting a huge edge by forming secret alliances with other players and doubling their research.

When I put up "no tech trades" on the game description, the game filled up fairly quickly so I think others liked that option as well.

On a related note, is Civ 4 players a good place to find games that connect via direct IP? I am rapidly becoming disillusioned with Gamespy, namely its lobby crash bug and constantly getting stuck on "connecting to peer". I am hoping that direct IP is the answer, but finding games that way can be a challenge.