Anyone else severely disappointed in Civ4? (RANT)

[Aro]

Originally posted by SpencerH


IIRC the comment that started it all was about using a great engineer to complete a building i.e. the poster commented that he clicked a button but the building was not completed. That button to hurry construction is particular to the great engineer and is on the lower left side and (IIRC) the icon is a mix of engineering paraphernalia and is not the lightbulb icon.

Yep. The lightbulb is for hurry the research for a specific tech (in fact, it discovers that tech mostly, but it's not true all times. Depends on how many hammers that tech costs). Any great people can complete (or speed up) the research of a technique, linked with its specific area of expertise.

Only Great Engineers can hurry builds, but Great Prophets can actually build some: Salomon Temple, Nativity Church and the other shrines. One specific button for each one. As well Great Scientists, they can build the Academy. Another unique button. Great Artists or Great Merchants can’t hurry a building, or build anything, IIRC.

Btw, I always spend my Great Artist dropping a cultural bomb somewhere… I should try other things.



As always, I apologize for my bad English.

[stankarp]

I want to just make a comment about the "cheats in AOM".

All games have cheats, but I went to great lengths to provide balancers as smithldoo pointed out. The idea was to provide interesting and challenging gameplay, but you could still finish and win a game.

On balance, there a probably less overall ai cheats in AOM than its predecessor, the Cradle mod. e.g.
1) I significantly reduced the casual ai pw per turn bonus.
2) I changed the code that allows the ai to build fortifications to connnect its empire to watch towers, mainly to prevent the human bypassing the repair code and use those fortifications.

AOM is designed to be less abstract and more historical, to throw at the human player the sorts of challenges that real empires faced. The Dark Ages is the main one, but for every challenge there are gameplay solutions that can turn an apparent washed out bridge into a sped bump in the road to victory. e.g. there are 5 ways to get advances in AOM compared to 3 in civ 4.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by stankarp I want to just make a comment about the "cheats in AOM".

I'm sticking to addressing the issue of AI cheats, because I do not have enough play experience in civ4 yet to talk about the other issues brought up here (combat and AI aggressiveness). I leave that to the experts.

My point in all of this regarding AI cheats and bonuses is simple. They are something that the AI gets for free that the player either does not get himself, or has to invest time and resources to get.

Originally posted by stankarp
On balance, there a probably less overall ai cheats in AOM than its predecessor, the Cradle mod. e.g.
1) I significantly reduced the casual ai pw per turn bonus.
2) I changed the code that allows the ai to build fortifications to connnect its empire to watch towers, mainly to prevent the human bypassing the repair code and use those fortifications.

In it's totality???? I vehemently disagree...

You were working from an earlier version of Cradle when setting up AOM (certainly not Cradle 1.30b which was the last version). That version of Cradle had a much lower PW cheat, though it too had the free tile improvements SLIC.

And in your testing with your earlier version of Cradle, you found the AI had a huge surplus of PW that was sitting there doing nothing so it was actually a wasted benefit for the AI more than a bonus.

Two things have to happen for it to be a true cheat. The AI has to get it and then has to use it... Remember, its only a cheat if the AI uses it.

In fact, when we we recently discussing the PW bonuses in AOM a few months ago, I suggested two things to you to do for your current version.

- Since the AI in AOM was showing the best expansionism of any version of CTP2, remove or greatly tone down the free tile improvements for the AI.

and

- Change the pw cheat from
my_pw_points = my_pop * my_tax / 4; (AOM/early Cradle)
to
my_pw_points = my_pop * my_tax / 20; (Cradle 1.30b)

This cuts down the cheat by 80%.

In looking at the update, dated August 2005, you didn't do either...

As for the forts, in Cradle, the forts were available for all AIs and players. Healing was an issue that was very slow in Cradle for both AI and player, and you just argued that fort usage tended to favor the player. So where is the AI cheat in that???? (Silly me, I thought we were talking about AI bonuses... )

Originally posted by smithldoo
Firstly, re the AOM AI cheats. I am well aware of the ai cheats (although you did list one I was not aware of). However, you did not add the human balancers (apart from better gameplay which the human will always have over an ai for the next so many decades).

The disussion and questions about balancers is a fair one to raise.

IMO, the balancers still do not bring the overall level of AOM cheats down to what is in civ4. Which is why I asked the question earlier in this thread whether there are hidden civ4 cheats that we do not know about.

Smithadoo, my statements in this thread started because of your initial blanket statements about which game cheats more. Most blanket statements are used with the hope that they will be accepted as fact without questioning their validity.

Remember my initial statement. Cheats and bonuses are things that the AI gets for free that the player does not...or the player has to expend extra resources to get himself.

Originally posted by smithldoo Most importantly outposts in AOM;
-getting advances from some goods.

This requires the purchase of a settler, movement of that settler to the good, and disbanding of that settler unit - which also incurs a PW, time and gold cost to the player, so it isn't a free pass at all.

Originally posted by smithldoo -getting pw and gold and happiness and health bonuses plus the option for cartels.

In order for the player to get the (+3) happiness out of a trade good that the AI automatically gets for free, he has to spend 6,000 PW to build the required outposts. The player does get cartels and the nice bonuses with them, but because of the AI PW bonus and free tile improvements, the AI can also (and will) spam the map with outposts with it's excess PW funds.

Outposts do not merely give cartels either.

Even if those outposts are not on trade goods, they are hands down, the most powerful tile improvement for much of the game. So simply building them on a normal tile gives a huge benefit when you can build them enmasse like the AI can. I have seen the AIs do it before t300 in AOM too...building 6-8 Outposts a turn, just within my vision range alone, so I expect there to be even more - and believe me, the player cannot pull that off turn by turn - building mass Outposts and other tile improvements and heal units at that point even if he goes 100% PW fund at that stage of the game, or even much later in the game for that matter.

Now the player can get PW funds from pillaging, but it is simply impossible for him to pillage every AI. Bottom line, many of the AIs will get the full benefit of this bonus while the player will never come close to matching it.

Originally posted by smithldoo Then there is advance from city capture, supply trains,

Does the AI get advances from city captures?
The player has to still spend PW to heal his units with a supply train, so we are looking at a minor benefit.

Originally posted by smithldoo wonder units and slavemasters.

...which the AI also has access to. Granted, the player uses them better, but that is a truth about many games (AI vs human proficiency in the use of ingame features).

Originally posted by smithldoo
My main complaint re Civ 4 is tech, a civ with 9 cities max was ahead of me in tech all the time until I got fed up and crushed them in both games. Seems like the usual story, tech freebies or trades for virtually nothing between the ai.

Simple...You play on a higher level, the AI gets bonuses.

And it is the same in AOM. For most of the game of AOM you are behind most of the AIs in tech, production, gold because of bonuses. I just believe that the totality of AI bonuses in AOM are much greater than what appears in civ4. It's the totality that you have to take into account.

I have had no problem trading techs with the AIs in civ4, so I still fail to see the player getting the shaft here.

[stankarp]

In looking at the update, dated August 2005, you didn't do either...

&

the AI can also (and will) spam the map with outposts with it's excess PW funds.

I have, as I mentioned, greatly reduced the casual bonus. I left the other one as I felt a good balance had been achieved. In cradle, any form, the ai only had to use pw to build roads, fortifications etc. The ai does not spam the map anymore, no way Jose. Point though the ai can cut (i.e. remove a tile imp for no movement cost but also no bonus) if at war. The net affect is that ai are at war very often and end up loosing lots and lots of tile imp and then have to rebuild them.

BTW, individual tile improvements have no where the impact of ones in Civ because of the difference in scale.

Yes AI can get advances from city capture, it can get advance from good (and I have written a small code to help the ai build outposts on goods, but not to the extent where it will target a good for an advance). Yes the ai uses pw to repair.

[smithldoo]

Two quick points.

I understand what you say Hex but Ai vs AI wars in AOM are huge and they are pursued vigorously, this is a big balancer for the human and ends up getting rid of a lot of those tile improvements you refer to. I saw one game where one ai took 12 cities of another.

Technology is the key, the ability for the human to get extra advances in AOM, despite the cost, is a huge/massive advantage/balancer IMHO. Chuck in outposts/cartels and you can turn fluctuations into a positive eventually. Because technology, especially in civ 4 as there are a lot less advances and the game is shorter, is the key, the AI getting access to techs easier in any way is a HUUUUUUGE advantage, worth much more than some tile imp in AOM, much, much more.

The human gets his own cheats which he has to work for, thats good gameplay and thats my kind of game (especially as i can play it without it crashing/corrupting and generally stuffing itself ALL THE BLOODY TIME, PHEW). My systems specs are WELL above minimum in every department and above recommended in 3/4 of points, but even a borrowed laptop could not finish a game.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by stankarp
I have, as I mentioned, greatly reduced the casual bonus.

Are you sure the casual bonus got changed???

I pulled that setting...
my_pw_points = my_pop * my_tax / 4;
from a fresh download of your Mod today (I wanted to double check the figures) and it looks to be the same as older versions.

Originally posted by smithadoo I understand what you say Hex but Ai vs AI wars in AOM are huge and they are pursued vigorously, this is a big balancer for the human and ends up getting rid of a lot of those tile improvements you refer to. I saw one game where one ai took 12 cities of another.

Small problem though...Tile improvements are not cities. The (AI) rich still get richer...

Originally posted by stankarp The net affect is that ai are at war very often and end up loosing lots and lots of tile imp and then have to rebuild them.

Only if you have gotten the AI to mass-pillage other AIs throughout the course of the game, especially those who are in AI/AI wars.

Originally posted by stankarp BTW, individual tile improvements have no where the impact of ones in Civ because of the difference in scale.

They have a great deal of impact when the AI can mass-coat multiple city rings every turn and the player can only afford several single TIs per turn for a great deal of the game. You end up giving the AI a two mile headstart, and the AI also can snowball when it collects the benefit every turn...

Originally posted by stankarp Yes AI can get advances from city capture, it can get advance from good (and I have written a small code to help the ai build outposts on goods, but not to the extent where it will target a good for an advance). Yes the ai uses pw to repair.

Well for smithadoo to claim these as cheat balancers is odd then...

[stankarp]

Are you sure the casual bonus got changed???

That is the diplomacy update. It has not been changed yet. I will be doing a final update with many tweaks due at the end of this month.

Anyone getting updated files from me in recent times is playing with half that rate.

Only if you have gotten the AI to mass-pillage other AIs throughout the course of the game, especially those who are in AI/AI wars.

The ai (50% chance) who are at war and barbarians (100%) cut tile imp where ever they have aunit at the start of a turn. It is not a pillage and they do not get pw bonus for this. But it leads to lots of the ai improvements being removed.

[smithldoo]

One thing not mentioned in AOM is the ability to get an AI to surrender rather than it always fighting to the death.

That is a huuuuuuge balancer for the human and puts AOM in a class of its own. My record is 6 ai cities surrendering in one go, that has come closer to me feeling like an Alexander the Great than any game I ever played. Like I acknowledged, plenty of cheats for the ai but plenty of game tools for the human, realistic historical stuff IMHO.

True I get to a position of dominance, but that is not a win in AOM. I still have to work at diplomacy right to the end and construct the victory within the structure of the game.

Unlike Civ 4 where I can largely get away with ignoring diplomacy and just start IAS after the barbarians start to disappear about 500BC, then just start a one sided, unrealistic splatterathon.

[hexagonian]

Hey, congratulations smithadoo, you finally came up with something that can be put in the catagory of a clear balancer.

I have at least two more that I can think of...

[smithldoo]

Your getting pretty close to being petty now Hex. Some of the things I mentioned are directly (supply trains) or indirectly balancers (city advance capture, outpost advance etc) because the human benefits much from them than the AI.

I will throw in Migrants. The ability to move population from city to city is really innovative and helps the human heaps as well. Instead of the Ctp2/Cradle solution of starving a city down to disband size, you can, using some money, move them or use them to build border forts to claim territory and watch for the enemy.

Quiet a brilliant idea by stankarp, and a big help to the human ONLY.

[Jaybe]

Now I will be petty!
Why don't you guys go discuss AOM in your own AOM forums?! When you post here, people think that it is Civ4 being discussed, and ...
since I did not care for AOM, I do not value the threadjack!

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Now I will be petty!
Why don't you guys go discuss AOM in your own AOM forums?! When you post here, people think that it is Civ4 being discussed, and ... since I did not care for AOM, I do not value the threadjack!

[smithldoo]

Thankyou for your comment/feedback Jaybe.

Firstly, I did not start the extended discussion which may seem like it is talking about AOM. I made a one line general comment comparing part of Civ 4 to AOM.

In this regard I believe I am entitled to do so.
1) I have standing in this issue as I have paid in full for a copy of Civ 4, based on its published minimum and recommended system specifications.
2) This is a Civ 4 Fourm, the topic is "Anyone else severely disappointed in Civ4?".

I have used a well established discussion method by comparing parts of Civ to other game/s. In the same way as others have compared things to Civ 2, SMAC, Civ 3 and other games. Soren admits himself they borrowed from other games freely as well.This method of using comparisons is used every day by many, many different people, e.g. researchers, students, critics, media, legal and public officials etc.

I prefaced some of my comments by saying "in AOM'. In future, I will ensure that all references to AOM are prefaced in this way so that readers are not confused into thinking i am talking about Civ 4. For example;
In AOM, an AI may surrender rather than fight to the last warrior, unlike Civ 4.
Or, AOM will run on anything that looks like a Pentium 4 even with 5 times as many cities and 8 times as many units in the game, unlike Civ 4.
Or, in AOM you cannot just go on unlimited war path for practically no penalty and all the advantages, against an AI that just sits there and watches you, unlike Civ 4.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by smithldoo
Your getting pretty close to being petty now Hex. Some of the things I mentioned are directly (supply trains) or indirectly balancers (city advance capture, outpost advance etc) because the human benefits much from them than the AI.

Playing on medium in AOM is more like one of the higher levels in civ4, because the totality of the AOM AI bonuses and cheats are not offset enough by the player balancers.

I guess I am more concerned about the degree of the balancers. I consider many of the AOM AI cheats and bonuses as powerful (the tile improvement one in particular...) That one alones greatly skews the difficulty on ALL playing levels of AOM because it is used in all of them. Same with the Dark Ages. They apply to all levels of the game.

...while most of the human balancers are not very powerful - other than a couple that come to mind. Sure they can help the player, but they are not significant enough to level the playing field.

I pursued this whole discussion because of the your assertion that the civ4 cheats are more drastic. I say the opposite.

My challenge to you - play civ4 on the highest level with the highest AI aggression level and with raging hordes. It is the same that you use in AOM. Beat the game, and post the file here (not a screenshot - an actual gamefile too) so there is no doubt that you won.

Until you do that, I cannot take your assertions as gospel. You are not pushing the envelope enough.

Jaybee,
I have no problem with smithadoo posting his comments - this is a thread that is a place to discuss the negatives of civ4. I am asking him to defend what he says about civ4 - and given that he is drawing comparisons to AOM, it gives his arguments some context.

You are free to read or ignore it - but I will ask this question. I know you played AOM - now suddenly you do not care about it.

So what makes civ4 better than AOM????

[stankarp]

Quick point or two about the tile improvement spam in AOM (BTW it was there because it was in Cradle).

IN AOM, if you get a advance from a ruin, slic tied to that does not always fire, especially later in the game (after turn 120). My observation is that many AI miss out on at least one if not more of the event. By turn 200+ no AI has complete rings of untouched tile improvements. Especially sea ones as the pirates pillage lots of them. On land, barbairans and warring AI cut improvements wherever they go, meaning also that many are destroyed before they can accumulate a lot of benefit from them.

In civ 4, in my 4 games (bear in mind the difference in scale), I did not build a worker usually till I had built 3-4 military units and a settler. Time enough for the bonus worker the ai gets on that level to build 20+ tile improvements and roads for 3-4 cities, enough to connect all cities and improve every working tile. In effect the equivalent of several AOM tile bonus events for AI, if it fires IMHO. Especially given the different scales (Civ 4 is about 25-30% of the size of AOM). So one tile imp in Civ 4 is arguably = to 3-4 in AOM. Bear in mind also in Civ 4 the TI is worked as a whole, while in AOM, they are worked as a percentage based on city population.

Same goes for techs. Because of the different scale and time line, it is arguable that each tech an AI gets as a freebie or cheapie (through skewed diplomacy) is = to 3 (based on total number) or up to about = to 9 (based on number X time scale) compared to AOM.

One other point, I don't believe Smithldoo was making an assertion, he was expressing an opinion.

The cheats are much fairer IMHO in AOM.

It is very clear that in Civ 4 the AI "use diplomacy" to get at least cheap techs. If you use your analogy Hex, both players use diplomacy so therefore this it is not a cheat for either side. I disagree.

For that reason the Outposts ARE a big, big balancer for the Human in AOM, because he can use them better and get cartels as well, IMHO.

That was the whole object of my game design, to crank up AOM intensity (which Yin acknowledged and complimented) but make the human work for his balancers.