Anyone else severely disappointed in Civ4? (RANT)

[Senethro]

You're entitled to your own opinion but you need some correcting.

Originally posted by smithldoo
But my biggest complaint is the AI, usuall Civ style over the top cheats which XXXX you off no end (e.g., I was biggest in a game, 5 techs ahead of any other ai at 0AD, by 500AD, all but one had caught up). The only thing that caused concern was the AI attack out of the blue after 500AD when the map is full and they are on your borders. Apart from that, it was a cake walk.

Large as in "lots of cities"? No surprise really then. Or perhaps its the AIs conspiring against the person in top spot again, although this effect doesn't seem to be represented in their attitudes.

As for Great People, if you read the help text you would notice that they don't discover advances, they give you a number of beakers towards that advance. Later in the game this number is smaller than the tech cost.

In my last game, Monarch level, great plains, playing as Louisxiv, I was nearly 3 times the next ai score when the game crashed and died around 1800 AD. I killed the ai one after the other with relative ease, as soon as I built a couple of buildings in a city I had no problems finance wise. AI counterattacks were pretty poor, often I would use a captured worker as a decoy and a valuable unit like a knight would go to great lengths to leave cover and kill it. Killed several stacks of unescorted catapults. The unit promotion system while interesting, actually made it much easier to take cities.

So play multiplayer then.

The people whining about AI fail to understand that if the AI of their dreams was in the game, someone would be getting a Nobel prize for it. They would make a new category just for them.

[vee4473]

if the game is too easy, why aren't you bumping the diff. level up?

[Cordelayne]

What's all this talk about video cards with colors? When I got my first computer, it was just one color--green, on a black background. Some monitors were more stylish at the time, they had the single color amber on a black background. When CGA came out with four colors, it was a revolution!

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by smithldoo
Over 3 games I had at least 3 occurrances where I disbanded a cleric in a foreign city and nothing happened, no message to say it was successful or not.

I may need correcting on this, but the city may also be converted with no chance of failure whenever you try to do this. You can also see the symbol by the city name to see if that city has your religion, and you should have line of sight too if the conversion is successful...

Originally posted by smithldoo
I also had 9+ occurances where I disbanded a great person and did not get my advance.

How the system works is pointed out above...

Originally posted by smithldoo
In my last game, Monarch level, great plains, playing as Louisxiv, I was nearly 3 times the next ai score when the game crashed and died around 1800 AD.

Agreed... this is a problem.

Originally posted by smithldoo
In my last game, Monarch level...
I killed the ai one after the other with relative ease, as soon as I built a couple of buildings in a city I had no problems finance wise. AI counterattacks were pretty poor, often I would use a captured worker as a decoy and a valuable unit like a knight would go to great lengths to leave cover and kill it. Killed several stacks of unescorted catapults. The unit promotion system while interesting, actually made it much easier to take cities.

What level do you normally play in AOM (...as I know you like that game - and I believe that a comparison of the two games is worth pursuing, given the higher system requirements of civ4.) Let's see, civ4 Monarch probably translates into the medium/hard level in AOM.

If you are normally playing AOM on VH or Impossible, play civ4 on the hardest levels - and then come back with a fair and balanced report when comparing the two...

I'd wait for the civ4 patch though (crashes and memory leaks are unacceptable for a publicly released game). On this issue I agree with you.

Originally posted by smithldoo
The only thing that caused concern was the AI attack out of the blue after 500AD when the map is full and they are on your borders.

Why is that a problem...after all that type of gameplay is pretty much the norm in AOM...

Originally posted by smithldoo
But my biggest complaint is the AI, usuall Civ style over the top cheats which XXXX you off no end (e.g., I was biggest in a game, 5 techs ahead of any other ai at 0AD, by 500AD, all but one had caught up).

Ahhh, cheats....

I have experienced in my civ4 gameplay that the AI will offer to trade techs to the player, so it stands to reason that if you are in the lead, the AIs will also see you as a threat and conspire to close the gap. It also appears that the game is not driven by civ3 style tech whoring.

So I fail to see this as a cheat...I'd be curious to see what cheats are actually in civ4 though. Some of the more obnoxious ones appear to be gone.

To be honest, I'd really like to see if there are some hidden cheats in civ4 that are not 'officially' noted by Firaxis.

Besides, I would say that there are a fair amount of cheats in AOM too, having spent some time analyzing the files.

To start...In this thread are the AOM cheats and bonuses

My opinion - both games are worthwhile!

[Chronus9]

I also had 9+ occurances where I disbanded a great person and did not get my advance.

Smithldoo - you keep saying "disbanded" in your quote regarding great people and clerics. I assumed you were referring to when a unit disappears after they perform a specific action.

However, considering the fact that you're not getting the expected bonuses, I have to ask: are you actually deleting the unit instead of performing the action you want? (not trying to be a wise guy here)

[Orcrist]

Originally posted by SpencerH
The movies are next to go.

If you want the Civ II movies see my post in here.

This way you get all the Civ II movies where there is a wonder with the same name, and it still shows the correct information about the wonder in Civ IV.

-chris

[RGBVideo]

[threadjack]

Originally posted by Falconius
Also, I think the unit workshop was over-rated. I would give units either the highest defense or highest offense values. Nothing else made any sense, so the choices you had to make were really an illusion.

Don't blame us of your stupidity and/or lack of imagination: You can create probe ships, AA specialists, Police units, anti-worm units, etc... and combos start to make a lot more sense for even the most basic units if you're running free market and haven't invented "free support" speciality yet.

And if you're seriously claiming that it doesn't make sense to produce any other blitz offensive units than ones with the best offensive value, you haven't RTFM or bothered to play the game to even understand the basic combat rules: different weapons get different bonuses against different armors. Some are best for the pre-photon wall defenses etc. This makes recon and spying enemy territory and tech a LOT more important, you can gain a big advantage if you know what kind of armor and offensive tech the opponent has researched and start producing units which get bonuses against them.

The workshop was the best feature of Alpha Centauri IMO.
[/threadjack]

[smithldoo]

Sorry, I have spent the past 3 days trying to finish ONE game of Civ 4. I have been having all the troubles referred to in the help columns, eventually finishing the game with the partly fogged out map referred to. Trying all sorts of drivers. etc.

Without a doubt, I have had MORE trouble with Civ 4 than EVERY other game I have played PUT TOGETHER. As a average computer person, I did not realise that you needed a special video card to play Civ 4. I can play RomeTW, MTW, EU, AOE3, and RON on big maps with lots of units and no troubles, but on my 2.8gig processor, 1.5gig Ram, 128 mb video card (2 yr old), Civ 4 is like dragging a dead sloth through quicksand. CTD, freezes, mouse freezing, CTD that totally locks the computer that even Ctrl/Alt/del would not release, had to power off to regain control. I have finished one game and that will be all. I also forgot the smaaaaaall memory leak.

If I knew I had to buy a special video card to play civ 4, I would never have bought it. IMHO the system specs are vague and if you read the Civ 4 help threads, MANY, MANY people have also been caught out.

Senethro and others;
Great People. The first and 3rd sentences in the manual (P 82) are contradictory, as I have now found out. However, in the game the mouseover says "AUTOMATICALLY" discover the technology. This is one of at least 6 wrong messages that I noticed.

Re the AI, I am well aware that for over 3 decades we have been told that real AI is a decade away. however, I have seen much better AI than this one in older games.e.g. The civ 3 ai was more of a challenge IMHO.

Re the clerics in foreign citis, I note if you disband in your own city, you get a message whether successful or not, but no message in a foreign city. You have to wait and watch for the little icon, why the difference?

Hexegonian, with due respect re crashes, freezes etc, Civ 4 is as bad as one of your early Cradle versions that always died about turn 400-500. Far out, the released game is not even a beta, it is a poor alpha IMHO. Go and read in the Civ4 Help column for a while, far out, its a disgrace.

As far as the cheats go, in AOM, once you eventually get on top, you don't have to worry about AI getting all sorts of handouts to boost them. The cheats are much fairer IMHO in AOM.

"Why is that a problem...after all that type of gameplay is pretty much the norm in AOM..." by Hex

Not actually, peaceful AI that you were never aggressive too would remain peaceful unless you went on a total war footing. Aggressive ai always had to be watched. In the 2 civ 4 games I referred to I had never attacked anyone (except barbarians). Then both games I was targeted by a friendly neighbour. Funnily enough, when I decided to implement IAS (aka Infinite Attack Sleeze (as discussed with stankarp)), it was predictable and booring. Get to 5 -6 cities then attack, target a neighbour with happy resources and go for it. In game one I was half way through my 3rd ai and it was pretty booringly simple, when the game died. Played again and this time managed to get to the win, one turn before I killed my 4 th AI (but I did it anyway).

Get this Hex, while I was super aggressive, NO AI DECLARED WAR ON ME. How realistic, wow Over 2 games I crushed with ease 7.5 AI and no one even sent me a diplomatic note. What BS. In AOM, by the time you kill one medium size AI you are on the threshold of being branded a cross between hitler and attila and one more war and you are on your own buddy.

It (the out of the blue attack)was only a problem in my first 2 test games because I was lulled into a false sense of security, 5500 years of peace, never attacked anyone, traded with all. The reason it was a problem is proximity, the map is basically full by 500-1000AD. After I became aware of the possibility it was not a problem, in fact it was funny watching ai units immolate themselves on my defences. Then of course, have cavalry to kill those stupid catapults that often travel like sheep in groups by themselves.

Chronus9; when I say delete, I mean press on the light bulb, this has been clarified above. I always thought automatic meant automatic though.

As far as playing again on a higher level, shove it. Slow, teedious, over animated, bland map, booring ai, diplomacy much poorer than civ 3 etc. But, before you all go off, I will simply say if they had put the new concepts into the old civ 3 engine, I would not be complaining.

In AOM I can play a gigantic game with 300 cities, 2500 units, map 500% bigger and do a turn in the same time as civ 4. In AOM I can grab a stack and be ready to move before the last one finished, tried that in civ 4??? It takes up to 5 seconds in civ 4 for a unit to move one tile towards the end of the game. Hex, you said it takes you 3 hrs to do 15 turns during the dark ages in AOM, it took me that long to do that many turns in civ 4 in my last game (1800AD) that is 25% of the size because the whole thing is sluggish and jerky and gets worse. Yes I had graphics on mimimum, animations off, quick battles etc,etc,etc,etc and the result was a bland, booring featureless waste of time.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by smithldoo

Chronus9; when I say delete, I mean press on the light bulb, this has been clarified above. I always thought automatic meant automatic though.

The lightbulb icon causes the great person to join the city as a superspecialist it doesnt cause the great person to build something.

[piotrr]

Originally posted by SpencerH
The lightbulb icon causes the great person to join the city as a superspecialist it doesnt cause the great person to build something.

No, the lightbulb causes the great person to add to a research goal by a certain large number of beakers dependant on the great person.

The icon portrait of a great engineer / scientist / prophet / artist however, does cause the great person to join the city as a super specialist.


Please tell me you've pressed the right button and only got turned around just now.

/ Per

[Aro]

I was about to post the same thing...

[Remulak]

OK, just finished my third game. I am mildly disappointed in CIV IV. I can say that I never played CIV II, so cannot comment on that. I did get CIV III and was bored and disappointed in that. A friend gave me Conquests, and I was hooked. I have spent many hours playing CIV III, Conquests. I then got the Rise and Rule MOD, and was hooked anew.

So, when I got CIV IV, I wasn't sure what to expect. The graphics are very good, but, to be honest, I don't play CIV for the graphics. I have a few criticisms.

Religion. I actually like the concept. I liked EU II a lot and religion was a major factor there. So far, I have not seen what the major impact is in CIV IV. Is there one? I have had empires with a state religion and many cities with one or two religions. I have not seen an impact with having a city without the same religion as the state religion.

Great Leaders. I am still learning about these. What are the advantages of the new GLs, as opposed to the ones in CIV III. Are you able to produce one from combat anymore? I haven't seen it.

Naval Units - Bombardment. I have a big problem with my navy not being able to bombard units. I used to be able to build BBs and bombard the units to next to nothing so that my marines could easily grab the cities. Why did they take that away. The role of the navy is really reduced.

Armies. They were really powerful in CIV III. I miss having them in CIV IV.

Got to get back to work now. Still plan on playing CIV IV, but really looking forward to the Mods. I think that will really help.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by piotrr


No, the lightbulb causes the great person to add to a research goal by a certain large number of beakers dependant on the great person.

The icon portrait of a great engineer / scientist / prophet / artist however, does cause the great person to join the city as a super specialist.


Please tell me you've pressed the right button and only got turned around just now.

/ Per

IIRC the comment that started it all was about using a great engineer to complete a building i.e. the poster commented that he clicked a button but the building was not completed. That button to hurry construction is particular to the great engineer and is on the lower left side and (IIRC) the icon is a mix of engineering paraphernalia and is not the lightbulb icon.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by smithldoo
As far as the cheats go, in AOM, once you eventually get on top, you don't have to worry about AI getting all sorts of handouts to boost them. The cheats are much fairer IMHO in AOM.

Puleeeze!!!!!

To start, the AI gets anywhere from a 150% to 500% boost when it slides a certain distance behind the player.

The other problem being that the design of AOM digs a much deeper hole for the player through the AI cheats right from the start - and most of the added cheats and bonuses are not tied into standings or difficulty.

Some of the cheats in AOM that are not based on difficulty or standing...

- When the AI researches Currency, every tile within an AI's city radius that can get a Trading Post gets one for free. If the AI has 15 cities, that probably works out to AT LEAST 30,000+ PW (very conservative estimate too)...and this is at a time where the player probably is stretched to get 500-750 per turn. This is in addition to an ongoing PW bonus that the AI gets based on population - also not tied into difficulty. Realize that this type of bonus creates a snowball effect because it allows most of the AIs a long period of time to reap the benefits of this very fat bonus.

There are other triggers for free tile improvements when the AI gets Aqueducts, Mass Media and Conservation - and are on all levels of the game for the AI.

- In addition to the normal gold boost based on difficulty, the AI will get (3x) its total population in gold every turn (15 cities at 10 pop per, translates into 450 gold per turn) for all levels of the game for the AI.

- Happiness bonus of (+3) on all levels of the game for the AI.

- Free unit upgrades on all levels of the game for the AI.

AI attrition cheats and bonuses...

- Dark Ages force the player to go through happiness fluxes that can force the player to use 3-5 citizens for entertainment duty fo 30+ turns. That can be up to 25% or more of your total work force. BTW, this does not happen to the AI, and it occurs on all levels of the game for the AI...

- Dark Ages also removes 20% of player roads and any tile improvements on those roads. BTW, this does not happen to the AI, and it occurs on all levels of the game for the AI...

- Players have to buy a special (and expensive) King unit every 40 turns merely to keep the status quo. Failure to do so creates ongoing unhappiness problems and creates a great chances of rebellion. Again, the AI does not have to do this.

It makes for good gameplay, but to be perfectly honest, I consider the AI cheats and bonuses in AOM to be way more extreme...

Originally posted by smithldoo Get this Hex, while I was super aggressive, NO AI DECLARED WAR ON ME. How realistic, wow Over 2 games I crushed with ease 7.5 AI and no one even sent me a diplomatic note.

What level???? Never mind, you cleared it up below... (still, until you play it on the toughest level, the analysis is incomplete.)

Originally posted by smithldoo As far as playing again on a higher level, shove it.But, before you all go off, I will simply say if they had put the new concepts into the old civ 3 engine, I would not be complaining.

Again, I do not disagree with the issues about the fact that civ4 has issues with performance (slow, prone to crash and jerky - I have many of the same problems too) but I am willing to wait to see how the patching goes. Suffice to say that if the game does not get fixed in this area, I probably will not play it long-term either.

But as far as the rest of the game (concepts), I'm enjoying it.

[smithldoo]

Hi Hex, difficulty level were all Monarch. Great Plains so there is plenty of land.

Firstly, re the AOM AI cheats. I am well aware of the ai cheats (although you did list one I was not aware of). However, you did not add the human balancers (apart from better gameplay which the human will always have over an ai for the next so many decades).

Most importantly outposts in AOM;
-getting advances from some goods.
-getting pw and gold and happiness and health bonuses plus the option for cartels.
-being able to use any land good (and sea good in the next update) anywhere on the map.

Then there is advance from city capture, supply trains, wonder units and slavemasters. The human gets major balancers from these as well.

AOM is fairly unique in that it has these balancers for the human player to encourage pro-active play. Yes there are ai cheats, but also there are major human balancers. Good stuff IMHO. One point is that in AOM on easier levels, the victory score is adjusted down to compensate for the fact the ai cheats are the same for each level. You did not mention that. On easy level you need 1800 points rather than the 2500 on impossible.

My main complaint re Civ 4 is tech, a civ with 9 cities max was ahead of me in tech all the time until I got fed up and crushed them in both games. Seems like the usual story, tech freebies or trades for virtually nothing between the ai.

Re Diplomacy, Trade and the AI.
Simple observation over 4 games at monarch level. Be peaceful and you get attacked (100% of the time, which must piss Nikolai off something terrible), be super aggressive and are never attacked (100% of the time). Great stuff

By my 4 th game I resolved to use diplomacy as little as possible, almost getting back to Cradle. My policy;
-never trade techs for less than 30-40 gold or another tech and then only older ones.
-never trade resources for less than 3 gold per turn and then only if desperate. Most of the time I did not trade resources to deliberately keep the ai down, only traded a resource for another resource. Occassionally gave cow as a gift to keep someone happy.
-agree to open borders.
-give maps to keep people happy.

In the last game I ended up with many, many goods I could have traded but deliberately did not to keep the ai down.

Stankarp is right I believe, too much happiness, too easy to take cities, not enough penalties for aggression, especially being able to just repair units in 2-3 turns with no production penalty. The civ 3 diplomacy was much better and military ai was much more of a challenge.

His IAS (Infinite Attack Sleeze) was too easy. I did not even bother to try to learn all the fine detail in the game. Get to 6 cities, build 2-3 barracks, churn out experienced military units, pick closest ai with good resources, crush them. Once I had their happy goods I was away. I kept 4 cities with barracks active building units, then I would switch to a barracks in a city closer to the front.

In the second game where I was aggressive I was ACTUALLY further behind in points at 1600 AD than my first attempt at IAS because I got distracted and kept building wonders. Ended up with something like 80-90% of the wonders by picking Louis xiv and using a stone resource.

One thing others have commented on is the tech timeline. It is all out of whack IMHO. I am able to research techs far too quickly compared to building units or buildings. 2-3 turns for many tech late in the game, far too quick.