A problem when playing on 2 continent maps

[Flavor Dave]

I play at Prince level. Here's my problem...when I'm on a 2 continent map, I dominate my own continent. I am not a player who constantly launches wars. I'll do it once or twice a game. What's been happening is that one tribe emerges on the other continent well ahead of me in science. And they won't make trades, unless they're ludicrously one sided. So I can't catch up. Here, as I see it, are my options.

1. Launch a war on that dominant civ with the sole goal of using pillage teams to ransack the land.
2. Launch a war on that civ with the goal of conquering and then razing 1 or 2 major cities.
3. Play better. (Is this an option? I'm able, like I said, to dominate my neighbors. It's just that they start wars against me from time to time so I have to expend resources to win them.)
4. Use diplomacy early and often to get that other continent engaged in wars.

Anything else? Please advise.

[wodan11]

So, you purposely chose a setting where you get two microcosms, where you have no information about and no ability to impact the other one for much of the game. You're able to dominate your continent, but you're concerned that often, an AI (who is able to develop with no human interference) is able to do a better job at it than you can.

Good job listing the options. Some comments.

1) I think you're likely to get crushed, and to boot, it's likely to be ineffective. You need substantial time to totally raze Towns. Anything else will just be rebuilt as soon as you leave.

2) A better goal, but can be difficult to pull off. And is likely to cost a lot of resources of your own. See... its not just what you cost the enemy, it's what you cost the enemy MINUS what it cost you to do it.

3) Always an option. Though, you seem to think "play better" = "dominate neighbors". There are a ton of ways to play better. Tech faster, build infrastructure earlier, etc.

4) Difficult as you really need Astronomy to trade resources (unless you're not separated by ocean, in which case you've got a screwy Continents map). Without that, your ability to pull this off is extremely limited. Most effective might be shipping over a ton of missionaries via caravels, but the hammer cost is fairly prohibitive.

5) Don't play continents.

6) Go for a culture or diplomacy victory.

[Flavor Dave]

So, you purposely chose a setting where you get two microcosms,

Well, it's not on purpose. It's just what has come up in a couple of my recent games.

1) I think you're likely to get crushed, and to boot, it's likely to be ineffective. You need substantial time to totally raze Towns. Anything else will just be rebuilt as soon as you leave.

That's disappointing. I've used this in "local" wars when I have bigger fish to fry than to try to crush my enemy.

2) A better goal, but can be difficult to pull off. And is likely to cost a lot of resources of your own. See... its not just what you cost the enemy, it's what you cost the enemy MINUS what it cost you to do it.

Yeah. But late in the game (infantry and artillery in the game I'm currently playing) there seems to be only two viable winners, me and him, so we're in "zero sum" territory.

3) Always an option. Though, you seem to think "play better" = "dominate neighbors". There are a ton of ways to play better. Tech faster, build infrastructure earlier, etc.

Nah, I'm wondering if my weakness is that I'm not developing tech as fast. If I'm doing everything right but just need to be smarter/more disciplined/more aggressive about the tech race, that's the answer right there.

5) Don't play continents.

Yeah, I've thought about going with pangea maps.

6) Go for a culture or diplomacy victory.

I understand the concept of the culture victory, but I haven't really thought about how to get there. I've been a spaceship winner/diplomatic win type in Civ 2 and 3. In Civ 4, when I get to the diplomacy win, I don't get the votes, even if I do the Civ 3 trick of making a bunch of deals to get on everyone's good side.

Food for thought, I guess.

[wodan11]

That's disappointing. I've used this in "local" wars when I have bigger fish to fry than to try to crush my enemy.

The difference is that on a separate continent where one AI has dominated, he's going to have a LOT of units just sitting there. Whereas, earlier in the game in a strictly local war, they won't have nearly as many units.

Yeah. But late in the game (infantry and artillery in the game I'm currently playing) there seems to be only two viable winners, me and him, so we're in "zero sum" territory.

Except you said he's "well ahead of you in science". You have to do a LOT better than break even. So while it might not be "zero sum", you're starting in a big hole.

Nah, I'm wondering if my weakness is that I'm not developing tech as fast. If I'm doing everything right but just need to be smarter/more disciplined/more aggressive about the tech race, that's the answer right there.

That's almost certainly the case (I'm of the opinion that this is one area that can always be improved) but without early game details, it would be hard to give constructive suggestions.

I understand the concept of the culture victory, but I haven't really thought about how to get there.

There are several halfway good strategy articles about it.

I've been a spaceship winner/diplomatic win type in Civ 2 and 3. In Civ 4, when I get to the diplomacy win, I don't get the votes, even if I do the Civ 3 trick of making a bunch of deals to get on everyone's good side.

Dip is difficult to pull off, but can be easier on Continents especially if you have the Vassals option turned off. The other continent in your presumptions has one big AI plus several littleones. So gift techs and stuff to the little ones and be their best friend for 50-100 turns. Should do the trick.

Spaceship is not so hard, even if you're considerably behind in tech, as long as you have good infrastructure. The AI simply cannot build infrastructure as well as a human can.

[Flavor Dave]

I guess I'll go for astronomy and observatories earlier. That's one thing I've kinda noticed. Are monasteries worth mass-building for the science? I'm kind of a newbie, but my take is, build them for the monks and the culture, not the science.

In Civ 2, I think I enjoyed was sending caravans hither and yon. It was a great way to get a science boost, esp. if you played peacefully and with the colussus. And it was just fun. In this version, I enjoy spreading my faith...I tend to found 2 or 3 religions even if I'm not a spiritual civ. My favorite fun game, I founded 2 religions in the same, coastal city. I built Wall Street there. Man, what a money machine! Anyway, I'm thinking that if I want to win, I'm going to have to scale back this "fun" a bit. Hold off on the missionaries until I have a better science infrastructure. Also, I'm running 90% science and making a ton of gold per turn in my current game, mostly because I've founded 3 religions and have been very aggressive about proselytizing. But it's been disappointing that I can't buy a tech even for 7000 gold. I wasn't prepared for that...I thought I would be able to pay an exorbitant cost for a tech, but they're basically not for sale.

Anyway, I think I'll give a new game a shot with this in mind, to be better prepared early in the game to "tech out."

[wodan11]

I guess I'll go for astronomy and observatories earlier. That's one thing I've kinda noticed. Are monasteries worth mass-building for the science? I'm kind of a newbie, but my take is, build them for the monks and the culture, not the science.

You'll get a different answer from different people, but I wouldn't build them for either (well, 1 monastery for monks, that's it). There are better sources for science, and better sources for culture. And it's not worth holding back SciMeth (and the tasty techs behind it).

Anyway, I'm thinking that if I want to win, I'm going to have to scale back this "fun" a bit. Hold off on the missionaries until I have a better science infrastructure.

Try specializing your cities. Make a production powerhouse, which can churn out missionaries if you don't need to make units.

I wasn't prepared for that...I thought I would be able to pay an exorbitant cost for a tech, but they're basically not for sale.

Yeah. You can research at deficit science through, and then you can trade techs for techs.

Anyway, I think I'll give a new game a shot with this in mind, to be better prepared early in the game to "tech out."

Good luck!

[Theben]

Flav Dave sighting

[-Jrabbit]

I don't play this setting, so this may be idiotic. But I'd try going for early alphabet and astronomy, then get some spies over there ASAP. Get the lay of the land and stir up some trouble. It's also great if you can find a coastal capital or shrine city, so when you send your fleet, you can seriously weaken the opposition with your first strike. Focus your own tech on being first to cannons. They have a long shelf life.

[smbakeresq]

If you have a relgion, then it is worth it to build the monasteries if you plan on getting AP or Sistine Chapel or Spiral Minaret or University of Sankore, or some combination of them. Each when benefits each relgious buildingin a different way, adding 2 hammers, 5 culture, 2 gold or 2 beakers. Its hard to get them all but if you do you get all of those thing +2 culture from the monastary itself, a nice haul from a cheap building. Scientific Method cancels the reseach effect of the monastary itself, the %10 bonus, but all of those other benefits remain the same but you must keep a State Relgion, so no free relgion civic.

Still though, 2 hammers, 2 gold, 2 beakers and 7 culture isnt bad. Usually I can pull off the AP and Sistine, for the hammers and culture, the rest is a crap shoot, the AI likes the others so its tough to beat them to it.

[Theben]

Scientific Method cancels the reseach effect of the monastary itself, the %10 bonus, but all of those other benefits remain the same but you must keep a State Relgion, so no free relgion civic.

This is false. Sci Method will cancel the benefits of wonders associated with religious buildings (AP, Sistine, Sankore, etc.). It doesn't show that it does wrt the AP, but a quick calc of your production will show it's not there.

That said if you are ahead of the AI in research getting several monasteries can be very nice. I would build them in high science production cities, or if you can get them early and have the wonder benefits of AP, etc. build them everywhere. A 60% boost in science until Sci Method is nothing to sneeze at. Of course when it comes time to bite the bullet it can be painful.

Going for Astronomy earlier is almost always a good bet. Losing the Colossus and/or Monuments /Stonehenge isn't that big of a deal, and you usually make it up quickly and more with transcontinental trade, and the extra you get with Corporation/Free Market.

[Ming]

I usually have no problem biting the bullet with SM. Astronomy on the other hand can be a real tough one if you have built a sea based enconemy with Colossus. But you have to do it since it does open up so many new options. I may end up delaying a tech or two longer than I should, but I don't try to avoid it for too long.

[Boracks]

I play with vassals and what I do in such a situation is pick on a weaker civ, vassalize them and then use their area to gather forces to start on the rest of the continent.

[Flavor Dave]

Flav Dave sighting

I really like this version of Civ. IMO, Civ 2 was a better game for its time than Civ 3, but I think Civ 4 is the best version (never had Civ 1). I had the game, played it, put it away and started using my free time to play the latest season of Championship Manager/Football Manager (a soccer sim game.) I played that out and am back to Civ.

IMO, this version is well balanced between playing big and playing small (compared to Civ 3.) I haven't found anything I really want to tweak like I did with 3; in that version, I had to adjust a number of things to make it more fun to play.

Well, except that boats are too slow. IMO, that's been a problem in all 3 versions. Not for realism, just for gameplay, to me the boats should be alot faster.

Anyway, I'll be checking in occasionally again.

[Norselord]

I really like this version of Civ. IMO, Civ 2 was a better game for its time than Civ 3, but I think Civ 4 is the best version (never had Civ 1). I had the game, played it, put it away and started using my free time to play the latest season of Championship Manager/Football Manager (a soccer sim game.) I played that out and am back to Civ.

IMO, this version is well balanced between playing big and playing small (compared to Civ 3.) I haven't found anything I really want to tweak like I did with 3; in that version, I had to adjust a number of things to make it more fun to play.

Well, except that boats are too slow. IMO, that's been a problem in all 3 versions. Not for realism, just for gameplay, to me the boats should be alot faster.

Anyway, I'll be checking in occasionally again.

Boats are slow, i like to speed them up by being the first around the world. I try to make that happen in every game, and it seems to be surprisingly easy to do. I'm not sure if the AI is not set up to take advantage of this accomplishment or not, but if the AI explores the same way that my boats do when i set them on 'auto' then it is pretty bad.

I like to get the caravels pretty early since discovering and colonizing a nice piece of land with a few cities can sometimes make a huge difference.

The first around the world movement bonus is probably one of the most underappreciated perks in the game. With the right promotions your equivalent ships can get +2 movement on the enemy. In my opinion this can really shift the balance of naval warfare.

[wodan11]

I've modded my game so all boats have a movement of about 4x their defaults. That makes sense with reality, how far boats should be able to move in a turn. So, galleys can move 8, destroyers can move 32 or whatever, and so forth.