Qin on Earth18 Map

[wertyu70]

Recently I played some games on Earth18 map and, despite I heard Qin is very powerful on this map, I was a bit disappointed when I played as him.
Eventually I won the game, but the beginning wasn't as easy as I thought.
He has a lot of good land and lots of resources, but there aren't early "happy" resources,
only the ones unlocked by Calendar, so I had some problems to deal with unhappy citizens.
Any suggestion? Early religion are founded always far away and it takes a while before one spreads to me, Monarchy is usually out of my research path (Food techs, Bronze, Pottery then beeline to Currency and Code of Laws).

Besides, I think I misplaced my cities, too many resources, so you need to found cities on top of them.
Can someone show me a good dot map for optimal placement of chinese cities?

Finally a need also a hint about military strategy: After Code of Laws,
my goal was Machinery to unlock chinese unique unit and I used them to attack Mongols first and then Japan, but I had some bad luck against Keshiks and Japanese protective Archers (Toku hadn't longbow...), the war was quite hard and I lost many units.
I went after them first to eradicate them before moving my SOD toward Asoka,
but maybe it wasn't a good idea.


What do you think about Qin on Earth18 map?

EDIT: I change my question because it was not clear.

[Ming]

Without religion, you either have to add moarchy to your research path, or build the mids, and get +3 happiness in your top 5 cities. Otherwise, you have to do a careful whipping strategy to at least take advantage of those unhappy people

I would need more information on how you went about your attacks on the Mongols and Japanese to provide any advice. Did you have a stack of Cats? Was your only col damage unit your unique unit? Why didn't you go after the wimpy Asoka first? The mongols can be easy to defend against with Spearman, and can usually be left to later. Toku on the other hand, really needs to be taken out before he gets Longbow or Samuri.
So a little more information would allow for better discussion.

[wertyu70]

I'm a whip fan and I used it a lot in my Qin game, but I had small cities due to happy cap.
I forgot Piramids, usually I never build Wonders in early games.

About war:
You have already given me a suggestion, next time I will attack Asoka first.

I had 5 catapults, 5 Cho-ku-nos + 2/3 Swordmen + 1 Spearmen when I first attacked Mongol's capital.
Probably it was a mistake to attack them first, but Gengis was so near to me
and I feared an attack whith my SOD faraway.
Did I need more catapults?

Then I attacked Toku, I conquered without problem the 2 cities he settled north of Korea,
but it was hard to conquer Kyoto, probably my mistake was to have just 1 boat to ship soldiers to Japan.
I moved 2 Chokunos first, followed by 2 catapuls, followed by 1 catapult and 1 maceman,
then as many chokunos I could send and most of them died.
I thought I could rely on chokunos col damage, probably I needed more catapults.

[Ming]

When in doubt, always build more cats (or the best col damage unit)

What you failed to mention is what the mongols and japan were defending with. It's hard to comment on your tactics without knowing the defenses in place.

[Sir Og]

What game speed are you playing at and what difficulty?
You should definitely place your cities on top of resources and you should spam a lot of cities. You should beat the Mongols and the Japanese to Korea.
In my experience Japan is rarely a threat in Earth18 so you can leave him alone for later Mongols also have pretty poor land and are not much of a threat. India is a lot nicer target.
It's OK to focus on CoL and Curr but you should trade those with some of the smaller European civs for Monarchy and Calendar as soon as possible.
Also make sure that you have contact with everybody on Eurasia as by the time tech trading begins.
I am currently playing an Earth18 game but with Inca.
I am playing Marathon, Monarch. In this game Quin is number one at about 1700AD but this is mostly due to him having 8 vassals.

BTW I think that the West European continental civs are the easiest to play with because there is great land in Europe and you have 5 neighbors which are building cites nearby for you to conquer.

[Felch]

Playing as Rome was a piece of cake. Each of those nearby capital city sites has a wealth of resources.

[wertyu70]

I have just read again my opening post and I realize that I didn't write it as I was thinking.

I didn't mean to ask "What do you think about my Qin game?"
but "What do you do when you play as Qin on earth18 map?"

Definetely I need to work on my communication skills and try to improve my English too.

At any rate, thanks for your answers.

Ming:
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I haven't a save, I played this game some weeks ago,
and I haven't a clear memory of how many units I had to face.
I just remember that Toku got at least 5 Archers built while I was bombarding Kyoto defense,
and these archers killed most of my Chokunos.
Against Genghis I started my attack when his capitol was defended by only 2 Archer and a Axeman but when I reached it I had to face some Keshiks (3-4), and they were the difficult obstacle.
Felch:
All Europe civs are easy to play, you can rush other civs and you get 5 capitols in BC era,
then you have so many resources that the game is nearly won, usually your only real rivals are Qin and Cyrus.
Well, if you play Rome maybe you can also conquer Cyrus in BC era.

Sir Og:
Currently I play standard games at Monarch level, Epic speed,
but on Earth18 map sometimes I play a level above with best civs (Rome is fairly easy)
or a level below with poor start civs (Incas).

About Incas on Earth18:
I won a game with them at Prince level, space race,
moved to the coast, beeline to sailing, then settle South America starting from South.
You need Quechas to deal with Barbarians at the beginning, but once you get Iron Working
you can build tons of worker, clear Amazon forest and get many cities with lots of river (even 20 tiles!)
It was a always peace game, Monty didn't attack me (maybe because we shared the same
religion and I traded a lot with him) and I could develop at pleasure.

[wodan11]

He has a lot of good land and lots of resources, but there aren't early "happy" resources, only the ones unlocked by Calendar, so I had some problems to deal with unhappy citizens. Any suggestion?

I'm sorry but I don't get the problem.

What's wrong with simply recognizing you need to prioritize Calendar? Are you spending too much time getting other techs first?

[wertyu70]

I'm currently playing again as Qin on Earth18 (well, it is not the standard version, some starting locatation are changed, such as Gengis is moved West, near the horses or Spain is on the coast), trying to prioritize Calendar.
I'm playing Monarch level, Epic speed.

Tech order:
Food techs, Bronze, Myst, Pottery, Writing, Alpha.
I traded for Sailing, Masonry and some religious techs.
I was one of the tech leader (with Hatty and Asoka, Saladin and Cyrus a little behind).

Then I researched Currency and Code of Laws, because my economy wasn't in good shape
(I probably overexapaded a bit, I founded many cities to get Korea, all China coasts
and to block Asoka to Indocina).
I traded for Monarchy, Iron working and other religious techs.

At his point to get Calendar I needed Maths (Hatty and Asoka didn't want to trade it),
after I researched Maths I discovered that nobody had Calendar to trade...

In the end I researched Calendar and got it at about 1 AD, now the Tech leader is Saladin (he already knows Feudalism), I'm the second, I think I will let my cities growing before starting world conquest.

Do you find anything wrong with my tech order?
Any suggestion to speed up Calendar?
Maybe I should research Math before Currency?

[wodan11]

Do you find anything wrong with my tech order?
Any suggestion to speed up Calendar?

You got six or seven techs that aren't in the path to Calendar. Obviously, to speed up Calendar, omit some of those techs!

For trading, you traded for a LOT of techs which aren't in the path to Calendar, and researched the needed techs the hard way. You say some AIs had Math but wouldn't trade it, but this was after you traded away a lot of techs which they might have wanted. Try avoiding the temptation to trade away for techs which you don't really need. Sometimes, it's simply a matter of timing.

[wertyu70]

Wodan,
next week I'm going to have the 3rd replay of Qin game and
I'll try to follow your suggestion and I will pospone tech trading of not immediately needed techs.
Usually I try to trade as soon as I get a chance, hoping for a diplo bonus and fearing that the trade will not be available in the future.

By the way, according to you, should I research Calendar before Currency?


Ming,
In my current game as Qin I have just realized the power of Collateral Damage units.
It took me 4 years to understand how suicide catapults can really damages AI defense
and save my "regolar" units.
And also I realized the power of cannons+musketmen:
I used to beeline to rifles, draft and whip riflemen, promote city raider maceman and then attack with catapult support.
But now I discovered that it's better to beeline to Steel, draft Musketmen and whip cannons.
My army of 20 cannons and 10 Musketmen was unstoppable, I conquered all Asia in a very short time.

[wodan11]

Wodan,
next week I'm going to have the 3rd replay of Qin game and
I'll try to follow your suggestion and I will pospone tech trading of not immediately needed techs.

Sounds good! Let us know how you do.

Usually I try to trade as soon as I get a chance, hoping for a diplo bonus and fearing that the trade will not be available in the future.

Who cares, if the trade isn't one that really helps you anyway?

Keep in mind that trading helps the AI more than you. It helps the individual AI you trade with, and it also helps all the other AIs (because they trade like mad with each other).

By the way, according to you, should I research Calendar before Currency?

There's no single answer to that question. It varies from game to game. Both of these techs should be on your priority list.

If happiness is a huge problem and you have plantation resources ready and waiting, then I would probably put Calendar first.

But now I discovered that it's better to beeline to Steel, draft Musketmen and whip cannons.
My army of 20 cannons and 10 Musketmen was unstoppable, I conquered all Asia in a very short time.

I think most people underrate Musketmen. It's not just the pure strength of the unit, it's the fact that none of your enemies have Pinch while you can have Shock, Formation, etc.

[rah]

After 20 cannons hit a stack, it really doesn't matter what other units you attack with.

[wodan11]

After 20 cannons hit a stack, it really doesn't matter what other units you attack with.

I agree. But that doesn't change the value of musketmen. You can use them long before you get Cannon.

[rah]

Yes you can.
What I do with muskets changes every game depending on the circumstances. Obviously If i can get Oromo's or Jannisaries yes, I'll build some. If I'm protective and am fighting lots of elephants, I'll build some, and a few other combinations. But If I'm going straight gunpowder, chemistry, steel, military science, then I might just build a few muskets and then wait to build grenadiers