Noble to Prince - unbearable

[Garth Vader]

The best defense is a good offense

If you are "defending" your territory, an offensive SOD works even better since when you are defending, you are still taking taking out units. Again, if you let stacks next to your city, you are probably doing something wrong. A few defensive type units mixed into your SOD's is really all you need to counter attacks on the stack. Otherwise, having a ton of defensive units is really kind of a waste.

Don't sugar coat it, having a ton of defensive units is a waste. All that production could go into CD units and some attackers and then there would be nobody close to you with any units to defend against.

[Baldyr]

One thing about army buildup I'm kinda struggling with is producing enough units. Since I'm always playing Johnny Too Late when its crunch time, I've developed a habit of pumping out military units most of the game. To not get sidetracked from this task I'm specializing my cities heavily, so that high production cities will be equipped with Barracks and almost exclusively build military units.

In a time of peace there really can be too much of a good thing, but I suppose one can always halt production when "quotas" as filled. Drafting is of course an option, but that comes later in the game and Nationalism isn't doing me any good in peace time. (Constantly switching civics isn't very resource efficient either.) Buying units is only available in late game and dependent on a large treasury.

Another strategy for building armies I use early on is building "potential" units. These are cheap end units like Warrior and Archer, that can later be promoted to something more useful. This saves me production for other things than units (like Barracks, City Walls and other war oriented buildings). Come war it's a question of having the right resources and funds to get my units into shape. One drawback is that these units will be very expensive to promote (since they're so cheap to begin with) and notoriously lack experience. So I'm basically buying expensive, inexperienced units.

There really doesn't seem to be any good way if you don't wanna waste your resources. Building a lot of units that get no use is just costing you upkeep, and promoting obsolete ones will cost more than their worth. Ideally one would have only a small defensive force in peace time and arm only when war is coming. The buildup seems to take forever, though.

Do you guys constantly build units or maybe rush build them when going into war? Any tips on how to get them out more quickly then? Maybe not have such a large army to begin with, but rather an advanced and experienced one?

[Garth Vader]

I try to time conquest with key techs and start early. So I will have a few cities build up my initial army of a few swords/Axes/Spears then when I get cats I will pump out as many as I can in a short period of time. At this point I'll probably have 5-6 cities, so if everybody builds one, and your best couple of cities build a couple then you have a good force in a short period of time.

Your production cities build replacement cats and archers for captured cities during the war. Plus slowly increase your field army as you get bigger. Using cats/trebs/cannon as fodder will leave you with a small but heavily promoted field army.

I will try to war as soon as I get cats, then again with Macemen. Then with trebs and knights, then riflemen and cannon and it's game over.

[brandonjm8]

hmmm, you would think that you would want to use your "offensive" SoD for capturing cities not defending yours, hmmm. i got it, thats why they invented defensive units for, lol . no thanks ming, you build very little defensive units while i'll build alot with my offensive SoD and not only will i capture cities but i will have a higher chance of keeping them since i have ample supply of defenders to protect them alongside my offensive SoD. i thought i didnt build alot of units since i focus on a D, maybe i build more units than you guys while being a builder

and excess units are never wasteful, if having the option open of having alot of units is a bad thing then you guys are hypocrites, while you guys hope that your early offensive army holds up and beats everyone and since you dont build infrastructure much thats too much riding on your early army, no thank you id rather plan ahead more and rely on my strong D with my O SoD's for quick attacks that way not everything will be riding on the O early in game (consistency is the name of the game, well at least for me ), plus i play continents so until astronomy (which is ALOT more realistic, this aint no pangea earth anymore, we have continents now) mind as well build your D first. as far as building ones army, as i said before build units between buildings and do some specializing but keep your options open too, a big army that isnt doing anything costs alot of money, a big D always has a job to do DEFEND. and if your defenders are costing you that much money (cuz they dont cost that much for me) than maybe you need some infrastructure for your empire, but then again some of us are barbarians (like some of you, kill kill kill) and some of us you call "builders" (like me, i kill but plan for it not hope).

[Hauptman]

I play aggressive AI ,Huge maps, on emperor level, and even my pure military cities dont crank units non stop... Sure I'v had fights get real close because I needed just a few more units to stop a SoD, but it's all about doing the most with the least. Why maintain a huge 200 unit stack when 20 will do the trick... Until the modern age my stack may never get bigger than that.

Even if I have to loose a city (temporarily) I will never loose a war. And the resources i save on military building and support can be put into more tech, cause it's tech that wins the game.

[Ming]

and excess units are never wasteful, if having the option open of having alot of units is a bad thing then you guys are hypocrites, while you guys hope that your early offensive army holds up and beats everyone and since you dont build infrastructure much thats too much riding on your early army, no thank

Uhhhh.... excess units are wasteful since you are paying for them at the expense of science. And while you are building those excess units, you could be building more infrastructure Especially when you are playing continents... since once you take your own continent, defensive units are kind of a joke until the later ages. And where did you come up with that "we" don't build infrastructure???? All I've claimed is that it's a waste to concentrate on a huge "defensive" army. An offensiive army is better for defense, and is more useful when you want to attack, or defend. I don't need a bunch of defensive units sitting around doing nothing. Giving a bunch of units a city defense promotion is pretty stupid if your strategy is to never let the enemy directly attack your cities

And again... from ths sound of what you post, you should be playing at a higher level. It's really not much of challenge playing at levels below your skill level, unless all you are looking for is a romp and no real challenge.

With Civ II, anybody that understood the game could win every time at Deity... That's not the case with Civ IV. I highly doubt you would be telling the same tales if you were playing Civ IV at Deity level, or at levels higher than you seem to be playing.

[wodan11]

• I'm specializing my cities heavily, so that high production cities will be equipped with Barracks and almost exclusively build military units.
• Another strategy for building armies I use early on is building "potential" units. These are cheap end units like Warrior and Archer, that can later be promoted to something more useful. Come war it's a question of having the right resources and funds to get my units into shape. One drawback is that these units will be very expensive to promote (since they're so cheap to begin with) and notoriously lack experience. So I'm basically buying expensive, inexperienced units.
• Maybe not have such a large army to begin with, but rather an advanced and experienced one?

• Maintain an advanced army, not a large one
• Heroic Epic
• Warlords upgrade for free
• Pay attention (Keep at the forefront of your mind what opponents have the potential to have a large army, what opponents have the possibility of attacking you, what kind of units those opponents have, what invasion routes they have)
• Be smart (Make intelligent decisions based upon the above information. Build defensive works appropriately. Position defensive units correctly. Build and position rallying offensive units.)

[brandonjm8]

Uhhhh.... excess units are wasteful since you are paying for them at the expense of science. And while you are building those excess units, you could be building more infrastructure Especially when you are playing continents... since once you take your own continent, defensive units are kind of a joke until the later ages. And where did you come up with that "we" don't build infrastructure???? All I've claimed is that it's a waste to concentrate on a huge "defensive" army. An offensiive army is better for defense, and is more useful when you want to attack, or defend. I don't need a bunch of defensive units sitting around doing nothing. Giving a bunch of units a city defense promotion is pretty stupid if your strategy is to never let the enemy directly attack your cities

And again... from ths sound of what you post, you should be playing at a higher level. It's really not much of challenge playing at levels below your skill level, unless all you are looking for is a romp and no real challenge.

With Civ II, anybody that understood the game could win every time at Deity... That's not the case with Civ IV. I highly doubt you would be telling the same tales if you were playing Civ IV at Deity level, or at levels higher than you seem to be playing.

i have 50 cities, over half of them coastal and/or border to 2nd, theres reasons i have a 200 infantry defense in place. and like i said its not wasteful if you know what your doing, my science is awesome and i make over 500 gold/turn so i can afford it, if i couldnt then yes i would have less D and more O but this game is not the case and usually isnt, of course i dont want the AI to attack me head-on but sometimes its not up to you and they get threw so why not be prepared for the possibility? id rather be safe then sorry which is why we have different playing styles. as far as difficulty level goes all the higher levels do is give the AI more starting units, and the cost of units/buildings/techs are cut in accordance to level, if you want the AI to build alot very fast then just goto WB and give them 50 tanks each, lol. i wish they did the difficulty a different way but if i have to give the AI such a huge advantage kinda takes the fun out of it, i could be more implied to cheat to keep up and thats no fun. eventually i'll go one level up, maybe i'll reach deity but if the AI are building buildings twice as fast as me and units 3x faster then of course your gonna lose alot w/o some luck. if it takes you 20 turns to build 10 units and in that same time every other AI has 20+ units of course your going to die, simple math unless you can somehow out tech them and keep an modern army at the time, if its the same as civ2 deity then everything is cut in half for the AI, weird thing is tho that civ2 on deity the human got 2 settlers instead of 1, its opposite in civ4.

[brandonjm8]

• Maintain an advanced army, not a large one
• Heroic Epic
• Warlords upgrade for free
• Pay attention (Keep at the forefront of your mind what opponents have the potential to have a large army, what opponents have the possibility of attacking you, what kind of units those opponents have, what invasion routes they have)
• Be smart (Make intelligent decisions based upon the above information. Build defensive works appropriately. Position defensive units correctly. Build and position rallying offensive units.)

"The Art of War"
strategize strategize strategize
i totally agree and i believe most of us do the same, the only difference between us could be the ratio of O to D units, i start out heavily D but eventually equal out if not have more O than D, others start out differently. plus with different scenarios and circumstances come different possibilities and routes to (a hopeful) victory.

[Theben]

If I'm a PRO civ my defenders are given Drill promos instead of City Defender ones. For the simple reason that SOMEday I'm gonna pull some of those guys away from defense and towards offense.

As long as you enjoy the game how you play it, that's fine... no point in playing if you aren't having fun. But I think even you, Brandon, have to admit that the general consensus is that your main style of play isn't optimal.

[brandonjm8]

But I think even you, Brandon, have to admit that the general consensus is that your main style of play isn't optimal.

thats only your opinion, im just guessing youve never played my game style so how would you know? you have no idea if it would benefit you or not. look im not trying to change persons playing styles but i am entitled to voice my opinion same with you guys, we each have our own way and most of us will be different. your way works good for you, thats your "optimal" way, while others will be different. am i a pro civ player, yes, with that said and my huge winning percentage means i must be doing something right, and just because i play on prince while you may play higher doesnt necessarily mean much, i play continents so the AI tend to get bigger than me at first, i have to survive alot of attacks and encroachments from them as well and since we have our own continents or only sharing them with 1 to 2 others we all get big and have equal chance of having high power, point is a well fortified and productive enemy is ALOT harder to conquer than an early pangea style AI, if you dont believe me then play continents and you'll see. if your not on a single landmass then you cant kill everyone hence the others you cant reach will get big and possibly surpass you, with that said alot of people will agree with me a strong defense is necessary with whatever promos you deem necessary, as ive said the key to victory is correct timing and balance of your army, remember offensive units like horses receive no fortify bonus or CG promos, so yes there are reasons to protect with defensive units while having offensive ones too which is what ive been saying all along, saying you dont need defensive units or very little is just plain reckless and your relying too much on one as opposed to using balanced attacks and defense. think about it, wars in real life arent just fought with tanks, they are fought with tanks and mech infantry and planes and ships, not all offensive units but a mix of both, you need defensive units to hold your place and advance with minimal interruptions. offensive based units are meant to be on the front lines and advance and conquer while defensive units are for fortifying strongholds and cities and newly conquered lands while the offense continues its advancements, its really simple really. if you want to be consistent then dont neglect or underestimate the devastating and speed of a combo'd attack. it'd be a waste to lose what you worked so hard to get cuz you didnt have enough defensive units to hold, think about this too, defensive units are good at keeping your offensive units alive when damaged, unlike most offensive units defensive ones get terrain defense bonuses.

[wodan11]

and like i said its not wasteful if you know what your doing, my science is awesome and i make over 500 gold/turn so i can afford it

Given how many cities you have, it's possible to support a pretty large standing army without tanking. However, the question remains: With fewer defensive units even more could be allocated to research.

but sometimes its not up to you and they get threw so why not be prepared for the possibility?

Building 4+ defensive units per city isn't the only way to be prepared.

id rather be safe then sorry which is why we have different playing styles.

Building 4+ defensive units per city isn't the only way to be safe.

Having a different play style is great... I would encourage you however to experiment with using offensive units for your defense in your next game. Experiment and see how other play styles work!

[Ming]

What he said... Especially the part about... even if your science/cash rate is still great with your pretty much wasted defensive army, it could be even better without it

[brandonjm8]

What he said... Especially the part about... even if your science/cash rate is still great with your pretty much wasted defensive army, it could be even better without it

you guys have no idea, lol. lets say we cut my D in half which is what you guys are saying, less D more O. ive got 213 infantry mainly for D but some promo'd for O, half of that is 106, 106 is over the free unit mark so i have to pay for them, wow thats only 106 gold while im making 544 gold/turn (im making that at 70% science, i could easily go to 80% science with close too 5000 beakers but only +132 gold/turn but i have universal suffrage and i like to hurry production and plus ive got at least a 10 tech lead over 2nd but 2nd does have strong and modern units only, he doesnt even have fighters yet or battleships or attack subs or fission and other techs as well, i know what im doing). your gold complaint on my playing style is irrelevant and petty, 106 gold wont do anything of high interest. and besides if i follow your guys advice and replace those D units with O units i would have the same amount of units so my costs would be the same. read my prior post after reading this and take your time reading it, im not going to repeat it here.

P.S. and yes ive tried many strategies, im not an idiot, ive been playing civ for over 14 years, trust me ive done just about every strategy there is. through trial and error ive found many "good" playing styles and mine will differ on conditions and options, my most common strategy is the one ive been saying, i know what im doing and talking about whether you agree or disagree, if you cant respect my pov and leave them be and just agree to disagree then dont get mad when others try to knock your ideas down, just be respectful and know we are all unique and different and respect that.
happy holidays all

[brandonjm8]

Given how many cities you have, it's possible to support a pretty large standing army without tanking. However, the question remains: With fewer defensive units even more could be allocated to research.

im far from tanking, my science is one of the highest ive had even at 70%, its almost 4400 beakers and im far far ahead on techs. try again.

[/QUOTE]Building 4+ defensive units per city isn't the only way to be prepared.[/QUOTE]

it works very well for me and how i go about doing and using em, i can move them wherever in a short time and easily have 100 units in anyone city in 2 turns, theres reasons i do what i do, plus my cities are close, ive got my whole island to myself with destroyers on patrol, but there are times you dont have ships around you so having a strong mobile D ready to go wherever the attack could come from along with some O SoD's is good strategy whether you agree or not.

[/QUOTE]Building 4+ defensive units per city isn't the only way to be safe.[/QUOTE]

duh, having O SoD's and ships and planes and good diplo skills and alot of others go into that, i didnt say 4+ units is the best way its a good start however and coupled with many other things can make your D indestructible.

[/QUOTE]Having a different play style is great... I would encourage you however to experiment with using offensive units for your defense in your next game. Experiment and see how other play styles work![/QUOTE]

i have