The game is giving me bad odds.

[Dudey]

Hi. Me again.

This time I've got a for-real question for ya.

Alright, so I'm about to attack this longbowman with a rifleman, and I don't believe I'm getting the proper odds.

The longbow is fully fortified in a wall-less city on a hill. He is twice a guerilla, and the city has a cultural-defense bonus of 60%. He should be at 18.6 for strength.

My rifle is twice a city raider. He should be at 20.3 for strength.

I'm getting a 24.6% chance of beating him. So says the computer.

I'm assuming the bow's first strike is getting me. That'd be why I'm not favored to win, I reckon. He'd knock my strength down below the 18.6 with that first strike.

But what's making me wonder here is, I've got another rifle who's once a city raider and once a combat vet, and he's getting 24.9% odds. ... He ought to be at 18.2 for strength goin' in, yet he's getting better odds.

What gives?

I've got 3 pictures attached for ya.

[One_more_turn]

Longbow also has a 25% city defending bonus.

[Felch]

His point is that the Combat I/ CR I is given better odds than the CR II when attacking a city. He's absolutely right that it is screwed up.

Are Riflemen allowed to take the CR upgrade? Could it be removing the bonus because this unit was upgraded from something older that allowed the CR and they gimped it out? Neither unit is showing a CR bonus in the final tally, even though it comes up in the list of bonuses.

[trev]

It is the way the calculation is done. A combat bonus is added to the attackers strength, in this case 10% of 14 = 1.4 The raider bonus is calculated on the defenders strength, so the additional 25% for CR2 is 25% of 6 (longbow) = 1.5 Maybe rounding errors give slightly better result for the combat bonus, but there is not much difference between 1.4 and 1.5, so the end result should be pretty close.
There has been argument on other threads about the worth of CR bonuses on upgraded units, the extra 30% CR bonus for CR3 is definitely worthwhile, but lesser bonuses are not so great against longbowmen which have city defender bonuses. The benefit of CR would show up more if it was Riflemen against Riflemen, but realistically you need cannons or trebs to weaken the 60% city defence to get reasonable odds.
A game I am playing now I have a stack of infantry mostly CR3 + Combat 2, a few + C3 and some + C1. These are making mincemeat of the AI's infantry with odds of around 97% generally (Note that the AI defenders have been weakened 20% by airships, city defences zeroed or near zeroed for these odds)
So I do promote CR units, but only those with CR3 and usually with some combat bonuses as well, and they make the best fighting units. Try to be more selective with your use of units, using collateral damage, airships etc to weaken defenders so you get many more units to CR3 status with some combat bonuses as well, and less units dying in battle before achieving the higher survival odds.

[brandonjm8]

since upgrading to BTS ive noticed for me that i dont see the odds while they are fighting, only when you select, did they get rid of that cuz during fights in vanilla you saw the odds while fighting too, just curious. as far as advice for that guy fighting strong longbowmen like mentioned earlier if you have rifleman you might have cannons but trab's will work too, build a bunch and weaken them and take down all defenses, kinda funny hearing rifleman dying to longbowmen, lol, but w/o proper promos that can and will happen. plan ahead and everytime you go to war and to conquer a city always always bring siege weapons with you. use accuracy and barrage promotions with your seige weapons, with those promos they'll reduce the defenses faster while causing more collateral damage.

[rah]

use accuracy and barrage promotions with your seige weapons, with those promos they'll reduce the defenses faster while causing more collateral damage.

Lack or loss of siege units is what slows down offensives so I prefer to give them city raider so a higher percentage will survive for the next city.

[Calvin Vu]

City attack bonus

It is the way the calculation is done. A combat bonus is added to the attackers strength, in this case 10% of 14 = 1.4 The raider bonus is calculated on the defenders strength, so the additional 25% for CR2 is 25% of 6 (longbow) = 1.5
So I do promote CR units, but only those with CR3 and usually with some combat bonuses as well, and they make the best fighting units. Try to be more selective with your use of units, using collateral damage, airships etc to weaken defenders so you get many more units to CR3 status with some combat bonuses as well, and less units dying in battle before achieving the higher survival odds.

Thanks for the info . I've been playing Civ for a long time but never realized that. It explains why my Infantry with CR3 and some combat bonuses can do better than a tank with CR3 against a Rifleman.
In that case, if my troops are much more advanced then the other civs then there's not much use for CR then. I've been working very hard to get CR3 for my Rifleman/Infantry by promoting Maceman with CR3 but it seems I go through a lot of trouble doing that for not much of an advantage.

[brandonjm8]

Lack or loss of siege units is what slows down offensives so I prefer to give them city raider so a higher percentage will survive for the next city.

thats why in your SOD of 50 for example you should at least build 15 siege weapons, id build 20 tho. i guess thats the way i strategize tho, i go for complete destruction rather than just a single or two cities, if you keep the advance going you have a higher chance of keeping the cities youve taken cuz your still advancing but that all depends on their city placement too and where you start your advance from.

[Theben]

Huh. Does that CR bonus apply vs. the normal strength of the defender or against its current strength, say if damaged?

Also does anyone know if the combat calculations normally include the full strength of a damaged unit to some degree or only include a units current strength?

[brandonjm8]

Huh. Does that CR bonus apply vs. the normal strength of the defender or against its current strength, say if damaged?

Also does anyone know if the combat calculations normally include the full strength of a damaged unit to some degree or only include a units current strength?

the bonuses are done with their current strength, that i know to be true, the CR bonus im not sure, i usually stay away from that promo, rather have the increased strenght against all units or the specialized increases like shock and the like early in the game, the +25% against gunpowder units is very useful with a modern army, 40 of modern tank with that against mech infrantry, goodbye mech infrantry, lol.

[trev]

All bonuses including CR are calculated on current strength.
CR3 infantry are far better for attacking infantry in cities than C3 infantry as I believe CR3 is 75%CR + and additonal 10% vs gunpowder units vs 30% for C3. The effect against longbowmen not as good though, but seriously in his example the real problem was the 60% city defence. Without that city defence it would have been something more like 90% vs 91%, very good odds whichever unit was used.
Personally I do not have the high numbers of siege units some other players use, rarely more than 6 or so in a stack, blast the defence over several turns if necessary, then if odds not good enough use several suicidal siege units before attacking with CR units. This way I can have more attacking units in the SOD plus several defending units of each type needed to counter expected opposition, ie some mounted units, some high rated Combat promoted units with bonuses against anticipated attackers etc, pikemen earlier in game etc. Generally if your SOD has sufficient numbers in it, the AI rarely does more than throw the odd cat or cannon against it or mounted unit, they do not attempt to destroy it.
Often among the earlier cities I attack of the AI I will attack all but 1 or 2 units, then wait till they reinforce and repeat several times. This way they use all potential counterattackers as city defenders, giving you far less to worry about when you advance to later cities.

[rah]

That's why it's nice to have a few extra siege units. That next turn when reinforcement arrive, you can nick them also. And since they haven't been fortified you usually don't lose many siege units (and get them some extra experience). Mopping up is usually a simple task then.

[Blaupanzer]

I start with high numbers of siege units so when some burn in suicide runs, the stack doesn't need to wait for more before going to the next city. Once I fry the oppositions' reserve, I don't want to stop or lose momentum.

[rah]

Yeah, especially now that the AI whips more. A few turn delay can mean another stack to deal with. And it also means the cities you take are now down to size 3 or so instead of the 10 that you'd get if you hurried. I want that extra pop so I can whip the basics.

[Theben]

If I follow this correctly, then a CR 3 Maceman attacking a newly arrived Mech Inf in a small city (i.e. no bonuses whatsoever) would have a 50-50% of victory. 8 + (32*75%)-> 24=32 vs. 32. Am I right?