Failing miserably on Prince setting

[rah]

While I may do that too, again it depends on the terrain. If it's just a crab or clams it's only 4 food and if you're not financial, only 2 coins, assuming it's on the coast. If you're on a river with the right specials, they can be more tempting.
Now if it's a fish on the coast and I'm financial, the decision is usually easier.

[wodan11]

I guess we will continue to disagree... I feel the worker is more important early than a "single use" work boat.

That's not quite fair. Both options will end up with a worker sitting there and able to have "multi use" functionality.

Run a comparison at the point in time immediately after the 2nd is built. i.e.,
1) Worker built, then work boat built.
2) Work boat built, then worker built.

Key things I would compare is what turn (1) and (2) each happen, also total research on each, built improvements (for the worker first option), and size/food of the capitol.

[Ming]

A comparison of what? As I stated, it all depends on the land you are dealt with. Both are superior depending on what land you have and how you use the unit. So the results will differ depending on the situation. So I can't agree with you that the work boat should always go first.

[wodan11]

A comparison of what? As I stated, it all depends on the land you are dealt with. Both are superior depending on what land you have and how you use the unit. So the results will differ depending on the situation. So I can't agree with you that the work boat should always go first.

Well, what's the best case scenario in your opinion? Unjungled grassland gems under Carthage, England, Portugal, or Rome?

[Ming]

HUH? I guess we so totally look at things differently because gems weren't what I was thinking about.

There are just so many different factors involved to make one better than the other... I'm saying that your simple suggestion that's it's always better to build a work boat is not true. You are the one making the ALWAYS better claim, so you run a hundred different scenarios and see if you can prove your opinion... I've seen situations where a worker was better... so I don't have to run tests to know that a worker can be better sometimes.

[wodan11]

HUH? I guess we so totally look at things differently because gems weren't what I was thinking about.

There are just so many different factors involved to make one better than the other... I'm saying that your simple suggestion that's it's always better to build a work boat is not true. You are the one making the ALWAYS better claim, so you run a hundred different scenarios and see if you can prove your opinion... I've seen situations where a worker was better... so I don't have to run tests to know that a worker can be better sometimes.

Exactly what I'm asking... what are those situations?

I just picked grass gems out of a hat. If you don't like that one, tell me one of the situations you're talking about.

It's impractical for you to just toss back to me "run a hundred scenarios". Not only do I work for a living, but that's just a gratuitous response. It just seems to me that you already have these "situtions" in mind so just tell us what one of them is. If you don't, then maybe we can come up with a good test case together. I'm willing to run ONE test case, maybe two. Beyond that, I just don't have time.

[rah]

run, non coastal clams vs grassland gems, and grassland cows along a river.
Non financial civ. For sake of the argument assume starting with fishing and that mining and AH can be finished so a worker isn't idled.

[Ming]

It's impractical for you to just toss back to me "run a hundred scenarios". Not only do I work for a living, but that's just a gratuitous response. It just seems to me that you already have these "situtions" in mind so just tell us what one of them is. If you don't, then maybe we can come up with a good test case together. I'm willing to run ONE test case, maybe two. Beyond that, I just don't have time.

It's not a gratuitous response, just asking you for proof to back up your initial claim, that nobody else seems to be agreeing with. How can you even make that claim unless you have seen every possible situation, let alone a simple hundred

I'm just saying that either one can work depending on the many different situations.

[brandonjm8]

i agree, with the work boat, not only the commerce you get but the extra food which rapidily builds the worker compared to not building the work boat first.

edit: but like ming said, its all situational with many determining factors.

[rah]

But if it's a crab not on the coast. a farmed flood plain is exactly the same.

[Theben]

I've never seen a non-coastal crab or clam. Only fish.

[Calibos]

Well, I tried a new game last night. It didn't go well

I started as the Chinese (not Mao but the other bloke) since they had Industrious and Financial as special traits.

I was placed better on the map this time, I had a lot of land to work with and chose my starting city next to the coast as there was a lot of hammers and food tiles available; as well as the commerce bonus.

I built a work boat as soon as I was able to and worked the clam tiles for my city; I also tried operating the workers manually and had them build farms. I had never bothered with the specific tile working thing before so I got to play around with city growth and production values, and I even managed to build the Pyramids through rigorous forest clearing.

I was top of the money pile and secured access to a stone, pig and fish resource early on.

Despite all this I was still waaaaay behind the other nations on points, what more does this game want from me? How can I keep up the pace with the other guys? What factors are considered in calculating the score?

I built farms and cottages on the food tiles and built mines on the hammers, as well as a quarry to hurry up the Pyramids. It was all going well until I was mullered by barbarians as I had a terrible army (for some reason I was being killed by lions when normally they're pretty easy).

I ended up entering world builder and placing tanks on my borders to destroy the barbarians. Then I quit the game in frustration as it's no fun if you cheat, i'm going to try again tonight. At the very least, I learned how to use the tiles better and use the workers effectively to some degree, so I guess it all wasn't a total loss.

It was again on Prince setting. I know, I got cocky.

[wodan11]

Ok, here it is.

First off, Ming, the gratuitous part was when you said, "you run a hundred different scenarios and see if you can prove your opinion". I mean, come on, man. But, let's not go there... let's just talk about the example we have at hand.

I set up a sample game on duel, chieftain. I did not put the clams on the ocean because that does not happen, as Theben rightfully pointed out.

Work boat first (Scenario #1):




First image is game start. Second is turn 12 when the workboat is generated, and the city is switched to working the clam (note that fish would be better because it's +1 food, but we're using the clam example). Third image is the turn the worker is generated.

I just noticed I have the game set at Epic, but that shouldn't matter as it's the same for both.

Worker first (Scenario #2):





The first image is game start. Note that the addition of cows means a worker can be made for a 3 income (3 food is equivalent to 3 hammers) tile which also gives 2 commerce. If there were no cows then #2 would best work the forest hill. Again, this is a best case scenario so it's okay if we "stack" the odds but let's keep in mind the situations so we increase our knowledge of when it is optimal.

The second image is generation of the worker, on turn 23. Note that the city is manually switched from working the cows to working the forest hill. This was intentional and should be the optimal choice for this game (feel free to challenge this assertion).

The third image is completion of the pasture on turn 28, and the city is switched from working the forest hill to working the cows. Again note that some commerce is gained thereby which is not necessarily the case. Also... this decision is somewhat questionable in my mind... is it better to work a 42 tile or a 3 tile to finish the workboat? I chose the cows, here.

Fourth image is completion of the work boat. Note that the worker was able to complete the gems mine which, IMHO, would be better to work than the work boat. So, in #2, it in fact would be possible to churn out a warrior or something before making the work boat.

Comparison of the two scenarios:
(a) Scenario #1 (work boat first) achieved completion on turn 30. #2 on turn 36.
(b) AH and BW have been researched in both cases. #1 has also gotten to 2 turns short of Writing (117/135). #2 has completed Writing and gotten a couple of turns into Alphabet (135+42/337)
(c) #1 is still at no food in the granary while #2 is just about to go to size 2 (32/33).

Commentary:
-- It takes 6 turns to make a pasture, so by turn 36 #1 will have caught up on tile improvements. Yes, #2 had made the gems mine also but that is moot because the city doesn't have the population to work it.
-- In 6 turns, #1 will keep working the work boat while the worker makes the pasture. In that time, #1 will generate 24 food. #1 will need 2 more turns to catch up to #2 in food.
-- In 6 turns, #1 will make 66 more commerce. That will bring it to 66-135+117=48 which is 6 more than the 42 #2 has.

IMHO the fact of #2 getting to size 2 two turns before #1 will provide additional commerce to balance out the bonus of commerce #1 has. I honestly believe these two are equivalent in benefit.

Unless someone can point out something I've missed, the conclusion I believe is that the best case scenario is no better than work boat first. What if you have fish rather than clams? Work boat first is clearly better. What if you don't have riverside cows? Work boat is clearly better. What if you want to skip Animal Husbandry and proceed immediately to chopping Settlers or making Axemen, or want to go for Pottery so you can begin making cottages? Work boat is clearly better.

[wodan11]

Ninja edit: The only thing I can think of that might help worker first is that, after making a pasture you can immediately begin chopping. I wouldn't want to chop the work boat but I might want to pre-chop a couple of forests. I would have to get road building though or I would lose the benefit. This option only really works because of the river cows. If we didn't have that then we would lose a huge amount of commerce.

Chopping in these cases is probably best saved for Pyramids or something. Having cows and clams means you can rip out a Settler or worker in no time. Chopping is almost a waste as each forest only saves ~4 turns.

[Ming]

Well... I guess if you don't chop early, I can see why you under value workers...