Failing miserably on Prince setting

[ybrevo]

Felch

I just recently moved up from Vanilla to BtS (it took a loooong time to ship it for Mac), and it has been a hard time to learn the new goodies - and set another strategy.

Maybe this will work for you as well: Play Noble, turn off espionage, tech brokering, diplomatic victory and maybe a few other things to make it easier to get accustomed to BtS. Go for a marathon game if you have the time - I found it easier to make up for a mistake that way.

And if you like a non-warlike cultural expansion (like I do), try Pericles of the Greeks and concentrate on a specialist economy instead of cottages etc. It worked wonders for me (not THE WONDERS), and I had 3 vassals by 1500 AC due to better techs and quick wars early on. And culture plus religious domination on the continent as well. Those missionaries are great for your economy!!!

Hope it works for you too

ybrevo

[wodan11]

How early should I begin a second city? I normally create a warrior or two and a worker just to make sure my improvements and city are secure, once that's done should I get rocking on number 2?

Theben said "ASAP" to the question on how early to make a Settler. I was going to say that but then thought, no that oversimplifies it. (Below is in the context of single player.)

If you're on the coast and have Fishing, I would start with Work Boat first. Always.

If not, then if you have a tile worthy of improvement AND have the tech to improve it (e.g., wheat plus Agriculture) THEN I would do worker first.

If not and if you have Hunting, then I would probably do scout first.

Otherwise, if you don't have 2 scouts and/or warriors, then make a Warrior.

Lastly, Settler.

After you build the first unit, then repeat the If/then loop, removing whatever you built first from the options.

Understand that expert players have debated this question and there is no one right/good answer. Except to say that if you diddle around making multiple other stuff then you have probably chosen poorly.

[wodan11]

Maybe this will work for you as well: Play Noble, turn off espionage, tech brokering, diplomatic victory and maybe a few other things to make it easier to get accustomed to BtS.

Careful with that, some versions with "no espionage" change it all to culture, which really farks with how culture works. Personally I would just leave it on. You can pretty much ignore it if you want and it shouldn't wack your game too much. Your inherent espionage buildup from courthouses etc will be an adequate defense against the AI using espionage against you.

Tech brokering off is probably a good idea for learning, though leaving it on won't be all that bad.

Anyway this is all on the "single player / custom game" screen Felch.

good luck and have fun!

[St Jon]

Don't bully yourself into playing a level above which you can now play at. I started 1, 2 and 3 on King but got a shock with 4!

Cottage or Specialist are 2 ways to achieve the same end. I tend to use Specialist but that is not because it is better or more advanced.

A lot of it just comes down to blind luck. Ming is right that if you have a tile to work you must have developed it. Farm or Cottage you just must have something.

At Prince the AI will talk to you and make deals. Use them rather than just attack them.

For Gold go for a SPI leader and get a very early religion. It's money for life and a guarenteed GP. Religion is important in BTS as it is a really good way to make friends of even the most hostile of leaders.

[brandonjm8]

just a thought to help you make money faster, research mysticism then polytheism, dont bother with meditation right away, the AI almost always beats you to it, with poly you get the "hindu" religion, if your beat there, after you get the food techs you can get monotheism right afterwards cause you went for polytheism, then confucianism wont be too far away either. then once you got a religion or two, build wonders, get great prophets and build their shrines in your "holy cities" and spread the religion, then build markets/grocers/banks in your holy cities then watch your gold go way up, when you get the hang of that spread your religion to other civs too, they might spread it for you after that if they have no religion, spread it in their capitals and other big cities. as far as military goes, build a defense before offense, try to keep a min 4 units per city and all cities connected so you can move them if someone attacks, use defensive units with defensive promos, then if you can get horses early build horse archers for offense and place them over your "strategic" resources then build them and place the extras in your border cities or close to your rival that doesnt like you, dont place all of them in one side rather the middle so they can go anywhere the AI shows if they do. like above said, keep your science at 50 or higher, only then build more cities, dont necessarily build barracks right away, instead have your cities that have them build the defensive units prior to the settler and escort them then defend the new city, if you have the tech, build forge right away, then granary, then maybe walls or barracks, whatever you want that city to be. what i do from the start is build 2 warriors and a scout and a work boat if needed in your cap, then worker, then settler, send one warrior with your settler, repeat that til you have 4 or 5 good cities, then stop, one worker per city is a good rule to follow at all times too, then build up your cities and defenses, build wonders with your cap or whatever high hammer city you have while the others focus on infrastructure and defense, then start building an offense and adding more cities when needed and possible, you'll learn as you play, just play and figure it out, thats the best way, goodluck, and if you have more questions, just post it and we'll help you.

[Theben]

The others have touched on this, but Civ IV brutally punishes you for having too many cities. Early on, three is a good number. Keep an eye on your tax rate, and gradually add cities as you can afford them. I like to aim for a science rate of 50-70 percent. Once I'm making a profit at 70% I build another city. I only break that rule if I need to secure a choke point or key resource from the AI.

As others have also said in other threads, 20% of 1000 is better than 100% of 100. Keep an eye on total science output, not just the percentages. Actually at Prince level you should be able to have 5 cities prior to Code of Laws/Currency and still command a respectable science output. Just remember to build cottages and/or run scientists in cities with lots of food + libraries/monasteries.

As far as city specialization goes, I'd like to hear more from the vets. My cities tend to be more cookie cutter, since I favor peaceful expansion, low difficulty, and long games. That means that hammers generally go to buildings instead of armies, and so I tend to overbuild cities. I also like big empty maps, where I'm not likely to run into the AI until I've had plenty of time to develop.

With those settings there's nothing wrong with building and in fact it's probably the best way to get ahead of your opponents. Bear in mind that with empty maps the few AIs in it aren't barred from expanding either so that's a double-edged sword.

AFAIK there's 4 basic city specializations:

-Military city. Build barracks & lots of units, plus other buildings as needed for growth/happy/health caps. BFC has mostly mines and farms with few if any cottages. Good location for Heroic Epic and settled generals. Later West Point, Ironworks and Red Cross. Don't forget 1-2 (or more) coastal ones to build a strong navy late game.

-Commerce city. Lots of cottages, with just enough food to hit your happy cap and enough hammers to be useful. Anything that multiplies the effect of money or science goes here. Places near gold/silver/gems or lots of flood plains are good locations... at least a fair amount of grassland. Generally speaking these are where you want Oxford and Wall Street, but other factors may change that for you (like 2 shrines in another city).

-GP Farm. Mostly farms, with some mines for wonder whoring. Runs lots of specialists in order to get lots of Great People. Parthenon somewhere & Epic here. Settled great people should be settled elsewhere as they don't generate GPP themselves... merchants in the Wall Street city and scientists in the Oxford city. Other wonders good for the city are Globe Theater or National Park (if it still has trees).

-Settler city. Needs granary and high production from either farms or mines. Then just builds workers and settlers for awhile. An early specialty that usually later becomes 1 of the above 3.

[Felch]

As others have also said in other threads, 20% of 1000 is better than 100% of 100. Keep an eye on total science output, not just the percentages. Actually at Prince level you should be able to have 5 cities prior to Code of Laws/Currency and still command a respectable science output. Just remember to build cottages and/or run scientists in cities with lots of food + libraries/monasteries.

Good call. I generally don't think to check the total output. I need to get better with the macro-elements of empire management.

[trev]

Sometimes even if fish are available, still best to build worker first before work boats, this way you have both worker and 'city hammers' improving squares simultaneously, gets the city improved quicker and earlier. Worker can pasture horses, cows, mines etc for hammers while city build work boats for food. Gives early flexibility for high hammer output or high food output.

[wodan11]

Sometimes even if fish are available, still best to build worker first before work boats, this way you have both worker and 'city hammers' improving squares simultaneously, gets the city improved quicker and earlier.

Nope. Work boat first will crank out very fast, and then you use the improved fish to crank out the worker. Your city also be able to grow while making the work boat. You also get a high food / high commerce tile to work while makign the worker (which is a huge benefit).

(Caveat: If you are using an old version, Warlords, or a mod, check the city screen to be sure it's working your highest hammer tile to make the work boat. Some versions will work a lake or other tile because they don't have the most recent algorithm to calculate what is the best tile to work. You may need to click the "emphasize hammers" button or even manually set your citizen to work the best tile. A better option of course would be to upgrade so you aren't running an old version. Regardless, if you're running 3.19 none of this should be a problem.)

Worker first will be using an unimproved tile to make the worker. It will keep your capitol at size 1 while doing so. It also is likely working an unimproved forest, meaning no commerce the whole time.

Worker can pasture horses, cows, mines etc for hammers while city build work boats for food. Gives early flexibility for high hammer output or high food output.

Can't make pasture until you have Animal Husbandry, which clearly won't happen for a while. Even mine only helps if you started with BOTH fishing and mining. etc.

[Ming]

As always, it always depends on the land, civ/starting techs, and other factors to determine what actually might be best for you. I almost always favor a worker vs a one shot boat to start. But, If I don't have any food on land squares, or I don't have the techs to use the worker at first, then I will do the work boat.

Can't make pasture until you have Animal Husbandry, which clearly won't happen for a while

Huh... If you start off with hunting as an initial science, you can have AH before your worker is built, at least at normal speed. If I have multiple "animals" in my BFC, and start with hunting, I'll take AH as my first science. It will show my where a strategic resource might be, as well as allowing me to work the animals in the BFC.

[wodan11]

Huh... If you start off with hunting as an initial science, you can have AH before your worker is built, at least at normal speed.

There are only 2 civs which start with both Fishing and Hunting. (Greeks and Vikings)

What you're talking about is a case where it seems best to do Work Boat first, then Worker second.

[trev]

Agriculture is an alternative leadin to Animal Husbandry, but the worker can irrigate if appropiate squares there, pasturing is not essential for a worker first strategy, irrigate and mine can do as well for a worker first strategy.

[rah]

Once I wasn't paying attention and did the normal mining-bronze only to notice when my worker was finished that I had no hills that didn't have forests on them so my worker was idle. DOH

Yeah, if I have multiple pasture squares I may go AH first.

[Ming]

There are only 2 civs which start with both Fishing and Hunting. (Greeks and Vikings)

What you're talking about is a case where it seems best to do Work Boat first, then Worker second.

I guess we will continue to disagree... I feel the worker is more important early than a "single use" work boat.

[Theben]

It all depends... but generally I'll pick a work boat over a worker for 1st build too. It may be single use but it's instantaneous, with a lot of food + commerce.