Attrition

[Blaupanzer]

Help!

I am caught in a war with Shaka in which he is throwing away 6 to 10 units a turn, but remains WAY more powerful than I am. He is behind in techs and I am about 10 turns from Gunpowder. He lacks Machinery, CS, Guilds, and Engineering all of which I have. His advantage is that he has at least 16 cities to my 8. (I say 'at least' as he had an open area to his northeast with some decent resources and substandard land (plains and tundra) that I can no longer access to see his cities. I started the war with 9 cities, the last inside his settled area with spices and sugar and with solid cultural push. I am Louis XIV (Cre/Ind) -- random draw. The tendency for the AI to blast out-of-control on city founding left that (previously barb) city surrounded by Shaka. He started the war by taking it with 3 10-unit stacks. He now sends stacks of this size regularly against my 3 border cities. With my advantage, I slaughter them on defense, but with a mix of impis, elephants, and cats I can't hit them effectively enough on the way in, especially since both jungle and woods are also on those borders. Therefore he tags me with cats, requiring time for the units to heal. I can't wrap up his SOD and return the favor and I need to keep13-15 units in each of the three cities. If it matters, we are both the same religion (I spread it to him as well as 3 other civs.)

So my question is: what do I do about this when he turns out units much faster than I do?

Note: I am also getting lots of spy attacks. This forces me to walk through my cities at least once every 5 turns to identify any lost buildings/improvements that I may have missed. All of this limits the joy way more than usual. I have lost games that were a lot more fun than watching an excessively numerous foe crash against my walls and die. He wants another of my cities to stop the war.

[SpencerH]

You have to divert "his" attention away from your cities and buy yourself a breather. Once you have musketeers, use them in combination with horsies to destroy his improvements and reduce his production. Move along forests and hills as much as possible so as to promote better defense.

The funny thing is that the impis are perfect tool for this strategy.

[rah]

Yeah just buy a little time. Then you will need fewer of your superior units to fight off his waves of attackers. Then you can strip a handful of units from each city and take the fight to him. Once you've taken one or two of his cities, he'll be more than happy to take a peace treaty and you'll probably get a few bucks out of it also.

[Felch]

I am consistently shocked at how the AI is able to support such massive empires and armies without running into trouble with maintenance. I try to keep my science rate around 50-60%, and I often see my empire dwarfed by the competition. Yet they seem quite capable at keeping up in terms of research. I was fighting a war with Monty, Noble small tectonic Old World start, he had "Europe," I was in "Africa." I was able to chew up a huge number of his troops as they came through the Sinai choke point. A mix of Cats, Axes, and Horse were able to get me a solid 6:1 kill to loss. I still wasn't able to make a real dent

[rah]

Well depending on the difficulty level, they're maint isn't as high as yours. And civs like monty get their basic techs, Iron and just go on the offensive despite their lower teching.

[Boracks]

And one thing I learned here in this forum is you don't have to keep your science rate up, use specialists for research!

For that matter, if you can get the pyramids, go into representation and then merchant specialists provide gold and research at the same time.

[Theben]

With your promos make sure you get 1 medic and one Woodsman III in each of your stacks. That way they'll heal very quickly.

[SpencerH]

It helps to turn off the ability to barter techs a civ hasnt researched for themselves.

[sorinache]

And one thing I learned here in this forum is you don't have to keep your science rate up, use specialists for research!

For that matter, if you can get the pyramids, go into representation and then merchant specialists provide gold and research at the same time.

Hmm ... I kinda' feel this only adds up on low difficulty levels ... To use specialists for research you still need to research writing and build libraries. While you research writing you don't research iron working. And while you build libraries you don't build axes and swords ... And pyramids are hugely expensive and very high on the AI priority list. To build them before the AI you need stone and Industrious or else you'll sacrifice everything else in the endeavor ...

Besides, specialists also eat. Before CS, you'll be severely limited by the availability of food unless you got a nice starting location with food plains (which is more likely on lower diff. levels)

[wodan11]

Sorinache, given my history with SE your post amounts to a troll. How can you expect me not to reply.

Hmm ... I kinda' feel this only adds up on low difficulty levels ...

Actually, a SE can be better on high difficulty levels because a CE can have trouble keeping up. A CE has to research techs the long way, whereas a SE can use extensive lightbulbing and trading.

While you research writing you don't research iron working.

Until you start running into archers with Shock or Longbows, Swords aren't needed. And by then, Cats are usually better, regardless. So, try sticking with Axes and skipping Iron Working.

And while you build libraries you don't build axes and swords ...

How many are you building? Sounds like quite a few... doesn't your unit maintenance cripple you? That's a much bigger problem than the question of specialists vs cottages.

And pyramids are hugely expensive and very high on the AI priority list. To build them before the AI you need stone and Industrious or else you'll sacrifice everything else in the endeavor ...

Trying and failing to build the Pyramids is quite a good thing. It gives you a huge pile of cash (the conversion of hammers to gold on a failed wonder is quite good) which you can use to run deficit research, in effect turning hammers to beakers.

Besides, specialists also eat. Before CS, you'll be severely limited by the availability of food unless you got a nice starting location with food plains (which is more likely on lower diff. levels)

The terrain requirements to run a SE are different from a CE. A CE needs grass while a SE needs water. Or, either can do just fine with food resources. Note also that both need production cities, which aren't running either specialists or cottages.

So in a SE if I have a city spot which doesn't have water or food resources, I often devote it to a production city or else found it last. It's not usually a problem. The only time a SE simply couldn't get by is if your empire is ALL grass with NO food resources, in which case a CE is a better choice. A SE isn't a one-size-fits-all.

[Blaupanzer]

It helps to turn off the ability to barter techs a civ hasnt researched for themselves.

I do this every game as it allows me to use my lead to pick up the techs or paths I have skipped or haven't gotten to yet. Highly recommend turning off tech trading and only allow brokering techs internally developed, especially as I turn on aggressive AI. I've begun using vassalage and diplomatic victory again. Had those turned off for a long while. Also use raging barbarians. Get lots of experience that way.

[Blaupanzer]

I use SE in cities that will support it and CE where I have lots of grass (or jungle) but no immediate water sources. Of my first 9 cities, I will have at least one financial city, one science city, a couple of pure production cites (with one for wonders/units, the other units post minimum inputs), and the rest units with some commerce.

Iron working comes a ways after writing for me, but I usually need it to clear the jungle and to locate the resource and city it. Have to have it before machinery for the crossbows.

Latest development: I discovered gunpowder, the first nation to do so. As I add musketeers to my production lists, I am very close to a coherent attack force. He sends in two 10-12 unit stacks which are both annihilated at a loss of 3 of my units. Up to here, I have had a lot of "lucky rolls" where winning was touch-and-go and his unit would be tearing up resources if it survived. Only a couple have done any damage. However, the luck is about to turn.

As I get to his first city, with my attack force (20 units) on a jungled hill, he finishes slaving a castle there, telling me he has Machinery and Engineering, although I have seen no pikes, trebs, or crossbows. I expect him to pile up units in this city which will force me to strip my defensive cats to support my trebs to attack his units. (Most of the fighting has been in the middle thus far where two cities touch the border (one of his and one of mine.))

As I begin to bombard, on the east side of our border, I see stacks on the move. Turns out to be three stacks of 7, 10, and 12 with some stragglers. He has to cross three rows of jungle tiles I control to get to anything and they are in single file. I use roads to pick off the stragglers (2trebs, 1 ele) figuring he might turn back for one of mine, but I'm mostly on his side of the jungle. As the his leading small stack emerges into the open, I also hit it hard, but lose several 80%+ fights. He pulls back and consolidates his stacks into 1 25+ unit stack. I am drawing forces to meet this threat from all 9 cities. (Have a recent cultural convert.) THEN, it happens. TA-DA! From one of his cities just beyond my border LOS emerges a much more modern unit stack of 50+ units including a dozen trebs, a dozen cats and crossbow, ele, horse archer, longbow, and pike units in about equal proportions eating my pikeman as it enters the jungle. This is in addition to the big stack on the other jungle edge and the 20+ units now piled up in the city I'm still reducing.

I do not have the warm fuzzies on this one. If my attack force was not on a jungle hill, he could probably wear some away with what he has there. The 80 units on the assault likely outnumber my whole army minus the attack guys. Should I pull them back to meet the threat? (I think so.) I will probably temporarily lose two cities and my capitol is under threat besides. Note I am not in slavery but CS to support the SE part of the empire. I'll lose a turn of production to switch this and I'm still researching Nationalism which I had planned to use for drafting instead of slaving. Obviously, Shaka is slaving like crazy. Advice? Thanks.

[rah]

Take the city and try to sue for peace. If his stack is not in your territory yet and you've taken a city, he should give it to you.

[Blaupanzer]

Took city, came back and slaughtered his 30 stack. He came up demanding the return of his own city instead of one of mine. Given that my guys were all torn up and several elites were eligible for upgrade for which I did not have the money yet, I said yes. I think we could have taken the 50 stack too, but I would have lost quite a few of these newly elite types.

I hadn't meant for this to be an adventure story. However, that AI attrition trick requires a lot of patience to work thru. They keep coming and coming; wearing ME away even though the unit loss ratio is 10-12 him to 2-3 me. He has more cities (many are junk), and just builds units, nothing else.

Thanks all.

[rah]

No problem with adventure stories if it leads to strat discussions and are entertaining.