If I had a hammer...

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Okay, this has been interesting.

I randomized my map options, as usual, so I'm not sure what I'm playing on -- but it appears to be archipelago, arid climate, high sea level. In other words, a bunch od small islands with lots of desert -- and no hammers. All the other civs are in the same boat as I am, which has made for a curious game. For example, there's been one war (I wasn't involved) for the entire game (it's now 1970), in no small part because no one's had enough production to field an army. It looks like I'm going to win via space race, but only because I beelined corporation, then railroad, then used a judiciously-saved Great Engineer to found the Mining Corporation.

Anyway, anybody ever play a map like this? Any tips or memories to share?

[Jaybe]

I randomized my map options, as usual, so I'm not sure what I'm playing on -- but it appears to be archipelago, arid climate, high sea level

FYI, F8: Settings tab tells you what you've got.

[Blaupanzer]

So ... what did the settings turn out to be? Sounds very challenging but a bit boring at the same time.

[sorinache]

So ... what did the settings turn out to be? Sounds very challenging but a bit boring at the same time.

I'm currently having a hard time trying to win an Emperor game with, of all leaders, Julius Caesar of the Romans ! One of the almost winnable starts put me on the northern border of the jungle - my capital had an "ok" location : 2 clams, 1 oceanic fish, 1 grassland with sheep, 3 grassland hills, a lake allowing to irrigate 2 other grassland tiles. Not exactly hammer-rich but lots of food. For second city I rushed to grab a site with rice, 2 coastal fish and 2 spices before Hannibal got to it. I've noticed Hannibal always expands like mad in the beginning. Only after settling did I realize that Antium's site had ... 0 (zero) hammers but for the 1 that you get on the city tile ! Appart from this single hammer, everything else was water and grassland. That makes for a pretty tough start before getting metal casting (workshop) and code of laws (workshop +1 hammer, yes ! ). OTOH, this looked like the perfect setting to try the benefit of slavery (lots of food to grow back quickly). I did and managed to stay friendly with Hannibal. So I did a lot of reluctant whipping to build buildings and armies. But this didn't help quite as much as I hoped. On our land mass Willem of the Dutch got way ahead of us and then, after Optics, we met the other AI, from the other landmass. The four of them managed to cooperate and had left us in the dust : Hannibal and myself were occupying the last two spots in the ranking ...

[wodan11]

Slavery almost never helps you keep up technologically. In fact, it's usually the opposite.

Another way to do it might have been judicial slavery plus top priority to maori to make one solid production city, and colossus/great lighthouse.

Most buildings you don't need. The one city could make all the military. All your other cities could exist for no reason other than to get commerce. And, if whipping takes off more citizens than will provide return in less than, say 50 turns, it's not worth it to whip.

[sorinache]

Slavery almost never helps you keep up technologically. In fact, it's usually the opposite.

Yes, exactly. That's one reason I don't normally use it. But with my second city producing 1 hammer per turn with no improvement in sight, I didn't have much choice ...

Another way to do it might have been judicial slavery plus top priority to maori to make one solid production city, and colossus/great lighthouse..

What do you mean by 'judicial' slavery ? Moai Statues (I suppose this is what you call "maori" was a priority in Antium and I managed to build the Great lighthouse (I like this wonder a lot). Unfortunately by the time I got metal casting was already badly overtaken and someone else got the colossus before me

Most buildings you don't need. The one city could make all the military. All your other cities could exist for no reason other than to get commerce. And, if whipping takes off more citizens than will provide return in less than, say 50 turns, it's not worth it to whip.

Yes, the maths were clearly spelled out in a post on another thread. I do need library, right ? Then if I want to stand a chance of whipping Moai Statues (on epic it's what, 250 hammers ?) I need a city that's a reasonable (besides, size allows one to exploit cottages and thus generate commerce). To get to that size, I need at least a temple, right ? If I'm going to whip, I also need a granary, right ? And since I work water tiles and use the food to grow back to size, I also can use Lighthouse. Especially since I get a 50% discount for being organized. So there you go, we build the lighthouse too. As I said, Antium is somewhat remote from Rome so once it grows, a Courthouse becomes really handy. Here you go, I build the courthouse too. Now I have this size, say, 9 city that works a handful of cottages and generates say 40 . At this point, building a monastery not only allows you to consolidate your cultural borders, it also adds 3-4 per turn, depending on the science rate. That's not too bad for 90 (or 3 pops when whipping) I believe. So I build a monastery as well.

Now can you point me to the "most" other buildings that I don't need ? Yes, I might as well skip the Forge, at least until I get Moai, aqueduct, monument, barracks but early on these are about all the buildings you can build and you notice there's a majority of buildings I'd rather build

[wodan11]

What do you mean by 'judicial' slavery ?

Already explained that. Whip only what will give you a return on the investment.

Yes, the maths were clearly spelled out in a post on another thread. I do need library, right ?

Library is probably the ONLY building I would whip, and that because it'll expand the fat cross plus let you run scientists.

Then if I want to stand a chance of whipping Moai Statues (on epic it's what, 250 hammers ?) I need a city that's a reasonable (besides, size allows one to exploit cottages and thus generate commerce).

If you're whipping, you aren't exploiting cottages.

To get to that size, I need at least a temple, right ?

Depends on skill level. I'd say no because I'd probably build it in a city with at least 1 hill. If not, then I'd probably use whip overflow to get it done.

If I'm going to whip, I also need a granary, right ?

Absolutely untrue statement. If you're going to whip a lot, you want a granary. If you're going to whip once or twice, you don't need it.

And since I work water tiles and use the food to grow back to size, I also can use Lighthouse. Especially since I get a 50% discount for being organized. So there you go, we build the lighthouse too.

I'd build the lighthouse after the Statues, probably. If you have fish and a couple of land tiles (hopefully with hill mines) that should be plenty.

As I said, Antium is somewhat remote from Rome so once it grows, a Courthouse becomes really handy.

I'd build a courthouse the long way after the library was done.

Here you go, I build the courthouse too. Now I have this size, say, 9 city that works a handful of cottages and generates say 40 . At this point, building a monastery not only allows you to consolidate your cultural borders, it also adds 3-4 per turn, depending on the science rate. That's not too bad for 90 (or 3 pops when whipping) I believe. So I build a monastery as well.

Now can you point me to the "most" other buildings that I don't need ? Yes, I might as well skip the Forge, at least until I get Moai, aqueduct, monument, barracks but early on these are about all the buildings you can build and you notice there's a majority of buildings I'd rather build

Monastery I'd never do. Courthouse is far down the list. Temple almost certainly unnecessary.

Courthouse as an example. You'll have to whip probably 4 citizens, removing 4 people from villages or coast for a loss of ~15 beakers/turn. It'll be about... 120 turns before they all grow back, depending on food surplus. Given scaling of regrowth, that's a loss of about 1200 beakers.

Say you turn 4 maint to 2 maint. So you benefit 240gold in that same time from the Courthouse.

240 vs 1200? Was the Courthouse worth it?

[rah]

I'd build the lighthouse after the Statues, probably. If you have fish and a couple of land tiles (hopefully with hill mines) that should be plenty

Isn't a lighthouse a prerequisite for the Statues.

[self biased]

a lighthouse is only a prereq for the big one, as far as i know.

[sorinache]

Already explained that. Whip only what will give you a return on the investment.

Yes, the maths were clearly spelled out in a post on another thread. I do need library, right ?

Library is probably the ONLY building I would whip, and that because it'll expand the fat cross plus let you run scientists.

Then again, if you ONLY whip library, then you won't build anything else with 1 (ONE) a turn. And given the food the city produces, it will grow like mad. Which will generate unhappy people quite fast. Then you'll think that whipping a temple is maybe not such a bad idea after all ...

Then if I want to stand a chance of whipping Moai Statues (on epic it's what, 250 hammers ?) I need a city that's a reasonable (besides, size allows one to exploit cottages and thus generate commerce).

If you're whipping, you aren't exploiting cottages.

Yes you do. In order to build Moai in a city producing 1 (ONE) per turn, you need a city that's at least size 8 or 9. While the city grows from, say, size 4 to size 9, there are a lot of turns when you can work cottages. I can tell for sure because I did it and despite whipping regularly my cottages grew to hamlets and villages.

To get to that size, I need at least a temple, right ?

Depends on skill level. I'd say no because I'd probably build it in a city with at least 1 hill. If not, then I'd probably use whip overflow to get it done.

Overflow or not, it's still a temple being built through whipping

If I'm going to whip, I also need a granary, right ?

Absolutely untrue statement. If you're going to whip a lot, you want a granary. If you're going to whip once or twice, you don't need it.

Ok, absolutely untrue in general. In a city producing 1 (ONE) per turn I positively _AM_ going to whip a whole lot. Thus granary is probably extremely handy because it doubles the speed at which I can whip

And since I work water tiles and use the food to grow back to size, I also can use Lighthouse. Especially since I get a 50% discount for being organized. So there you go, we build the lighthouse too.

I'd build the lighthouse after the Statues, probably. If you have fish and a couple of land tiles (hopefully with hill mines) that should be plenty.

Well if I had that I wouldn't have contributed to this thread. If I told the story of this map is because I do not have ANY hammer producing tile (until metal casting at least). Antium is producing 1 (ONE) per turn. This is the topic of my post, I wasn't discussing in general, I was talking about a rather peculiar situation

As I said, Antium is somewhat remote from Rome so once it grows, a Courthouse becomes really handy.

I'd build a courthouse the long way after the library was done.

Here you go, I build the courthouse too. Now I have this size, say, 9 city that works a handful of cottages and generates say 40 . At this point, building a monastery not only allows you to consolidate your cultural borders, it also adds 3-4 per turn, depending on the science rate. That's not too bad for 90 (or 3 pops when whipping) I believe. So I build a monastery as well.

Now can you point me to the "most" other buildings that I don't need ? Yes, I might as well skip the Forge, at least until I get Moai, aqueduct, monument, barracks but early on these are about all the buildings you can build and you notice there's a majority of buildings I'd rather build

Monastery I'd never do. Courthouse is far down the list. Temple almost certainly unnecessary.

Courthouse as an example. You'll have to whip probably 4 citizens, removing 4 people from villages or coast for a loss of ~15 beakers/turn.

It'll be about... 120 turns before they all grow back, depending on food surplus. Given scaling of regrowth, that's a loss of about 1200 beakers.

Say you turn 4 maint to 2 maint. So you benefit 240gold in that same time from the Courthouse.

240 vs 1200? Was the Courthouse worth it?

To quote someone I respect : "Absolutely untrue statement". First, you forget that I'm organized, which means I get a courthouse for half the price. Then, note that I really intend to have my second city be a useful city, hence I plan on letting it grow (at least once the basic buildings are in place). At size 10, with 5 cities, given the distance, I'm around 5,3 gold per turn in maintenance. Now if I whip it with 2 pops (60 ) and a granary already present, that's 37 food (8+10+9+10). I already have Lighthouse as well. I'm working 2 coastal fish (8 extra food) and a rice farm (not irrigated, 3 extra food). That's +11 surplus food per turn or about 4 turns to grow back from 8 to 10. In the meanwhile, I lost the benefit of working 2 hamlets, that is 16 commerce or (with library) a grand total of 20 beakers. Is the Courthouse worth it ? You betcha' !

[wodan11]

Then again, if you ONLY whip library, then you won't build anything else with 1 (ONE) a turn. And given the food the city produces, it will grow like mad. Which will generate unhappy people quite fast. Then you'll think that whipping a temple is maybe not such a bad idea after all ...

There are other sources of happiness. Easier/better to simply find another resource and build another city, for example.

Whipping a temple when you have unhappy will in fact only be purely beneficial if you are whipping enough people to also knock the city down below the overpopulation limit. Otherwise, you're not changing how many unhappy citizens there are and the people you whip away will be removed from your Towns/Coast worked tiles. Once the whip penalty goes away you will start to get some benefit.

Ideally you should look for things which help empire wide. A new resource, for example, will help ALL cities in your empire.

Simply having unhappy people isn't a negative (other than preventing WLTK days). Running several specialists will easily equalize your food balance and make a steady profitable city.

Yes you do. In order to build Moai in a city producing 1 (ONE) per turn, you need a city that's at least size 8 or 9.

The city you want the Statues is the exception because that's a production city. Whip all you want to get the Statues going.

While the city grows from, say, size 4 to size 9, there are a lot of turns when you can work cottages. I can tell for sure because I did it and despite whipping regularly my cottages grew to hamlets and villages.

Sorry, I was imprecise. I didn't mean you aren't exploiting ANY cottages, but that you are severely hampering your cottage growth and commerce income.

There's a huge difference between working 9 cottages/Towns, and working only 4.

Overflow or not, it's still a temple being built through whipping.

Sorry, you misunderstood. When I said "get it done" I meant building the Statues by using whip overflow.

Ok, absolutely untrue in general. In a city producing 1 (ONE) per turn I positively _AM_ going to whip a whole lot.

Well, that's where we differ in this whole discussion. I contend that you would be better off in that city NOT whipping a whole lot unless it has a huge amount of excess food (3+ food resources).

Well if I had that I wouldn't have contributed to this thread. If I told the story of this map is because I do not have ANY hammer producing tile (until metal casting at least). Antium is producing 1 (ONE) per turn. This is the topic of my post, I wasn't discussing in general, I was talking about a rather peculiar situation.

Sorry, didn't you say: "my capital had an "ok" location : 2 clams, 1 oceanic fish, 1 grassland with sheep, 3 grassland hills"

3 Grassland hills = a lot more than 1/turn, correct?

To quote someone I respect : "Absolutely untrue statement". First, you forget that I'm organized, which means I get a courthouse for half the price. Then, note that I really intend to have my second city be a useful city, hence I plan on letting it grow (at least once the basic buildings are in place). At size 10, with 5 cities, given the distance, I'm around 5,3 gold per turn in maintenance. Now if I whip it with 2 pops (60 ) and a granary already present, that's 37 food (8+10+9+10). I already have Lighthouse as well. I'm working 2 coastal fish (8 extra food) and a rice farm (not irrigated, 3 extra food). That's +11 surplus food per turn or about 4 turns to grow back from 8 to 10. In the meanwhile, I lost the benefit of working 2 hamlets, that is 16 commerce or (with library) a grand total of 20 beakers. Is the Courthouse worth it ? You betcha' !

Super food heavy cities (> 3 food resources) are always more efficient at whipping as I mentioned, but they're the exception.

May I ask how much the courthouse in your capital there saved you? You are talking about your capital, correct?

Also, you forgot the cottage maturation loss in your maths.

[sorinache]

There are other sources of happiness.
Sorry, didn't you say: "my capital had an "ok" location : 2 clams, 1 oceanic fish, 1 grassland with sheep, 3 grassland hills"

3 Grassland hills = a lot more than 1/turn, correct?

Yes, but I'm Julius Caesar of the Romans, my capital is Rome. This is Antium I'm talking about, my second city which I settled (a bit far from Rome) in a rush to get the spot with lots of resources before Hannibal and didn't notice it won't be producing any hammer

Super food heavy cities (> 3 food resources) are always more efficient at whipping as I mentioned, but they're the exception.

May I ask how much the courthouse in your capital there saved you? You are talking about your capital, correct?

Also, you forgot the cottage maturation loss in your maths.

No, I'm not talking about my capital (Rome), I'm talking about Antium, my second city. You are right that cottage maturation needs to be added to the equation but still, given the excess food this city is producing, whipping the Courthouse is still a good deal for an organized leader I believe

[Blaupanzer]

As an Organized leader, I suspect you do not need to build a courthouse until you get the hammers for it. Benefit from the commerce of your citizens in dollars and science until you build the Moai statues (not Maori from New Zealand, but the Gallepagos island heads). The additional spy points may be worth the money loss, but other cities can build theirs first, while this one waits. Granary can wait too, as you are not building forge, courthouse, lighthouse, or granary greatly reducing your whipping.

In general, all my cities have courthouses, barracks, forges, and walls. Situational buildings are constructed as appropriate based on land, neighbors, and resources and include lighthouses, libraries, a monetary building (market, etc.), a theater, and any Wonders. Later, I am a fan of adding at least a bank and an observatory to any high money cities. Elsewise make soldiers! NOTE: I generally stick with Mercantilism and State Property thus only build (brain fart -- what is piers?, docks?) when I need the health in a given city and not for the trade value. All bets and limits are reevaluated in the modern era as I go for broke on the previously selected victory.

[Felch]

Harbor?

I don't really compete on this level (I'd never spend the time analyzing things the way Wodan does for instance), but I really hate accidentally founding a city where no hammers are available. Do you guys play with diplo victory on? The Apostolic palace makes temples and monasteries crucial.

[Blaupanzer]

Yes harbor!
Good point, although it only applies if your primary religion is the same as the Palace owner and you have those buildings in this town. Right?