Unused Trait flags - why didn't they?

[Willem]

I came across a thread at Civfanatics where someone mentioned that the Industrious trait should get extra Hammers from things like Mines etc., just like the Financial civ gets extra commerce from a tile. I thought that was a good point so changed my Industrious to get +1 Hammer for any plot with 4 of them, like a Plains mine. I don't get into being a Wonder whore at all so the 50% Wonder boost meant that trait was pretty much useless to me, but getting extra Hammers certainly isn't. To compensate, I reduced the Wonder production to 25%.

But while I was looking around I noticed a few flags that weren't being used by any trait, which seemed like natural additions to what currently exists. For instance, there's been alot of discussion about Protective been a very weak weak trait and not very useful to players. But there's a flag that works the same way as the Great Wall, giving the trait a bonus towards Great General production when waging battles inside their own borders. For a defensive trait, that ability seems like a no brainer so I gave my Protective civs a 50% bonus. I don't really understand why they didn't include that in the first place frankly. Granted that makes Charlemagne a bit of a powerhouse with defensive wars, since he's Imperialistic/Protective, but he's the only civ with that combination. And using the right tactics you can negate that extra 50% bonus. Just draw his forces out of his borders.

Another flag not being used is a Trade Yield modifier. When I tried it out I discovered that I could give a particular trait a +1 commerce to all their trade routes, or more if I wanted to. That seemed like a natural for the Organized trait which, though not bad, is a bit weak economically compared to Financial. Getting that extra trade route yield should bring the two pretty close though.

One last flag that I couldn't really find a use for though is a commerce modifier. It will add a certain percentage of either Research, Gold or Culture to a trait. I couldn't really think of any value that would end up being overpowered, and a simple 1% increase seemed rather pointless. I thought of giving a 1% increase to beakers to the Philosophical trait but even that seemed overpowered. I'm still debating whether I should or not though.

And the Imperialist trait is useful only in certain situations, you're either waging war or building a Settler. So I've added a +1 food bonus to any plot with 5 or more. This gives that trait a bonus to it's bonuses, at least when it comes to food. It seemed to have a good synergy to it's Settler production ability since it now gets a bonus from both types of production that units uses, making the ability more effective. Plus there's still a benefit if you're not waging war or expanding.

Also, why aren't Spiritual civs getting a production bonus for Missionaries? That seem like a natural to me. I've given mine a 25% bonus, which will help but shouldn't be overpowered, and gives the Spiritual trait an advantage when not actually switching civics. Which is the only time that trait serves any purpose, unlike ones like Financial, Organized etc.

[wodan11]

It's likely they programmed those flags, and then either found them broken, duplicate of other gameplay, or not very good or valuable gameplay.

[Willem]

Well all the ones I've changed are certainly working. And though the Domestic Great General modifier is similar to the one that Imperialists get, the nature is quite different and fits very well with that trait. I don't think there's any question that Protective is the weakest trait in the game, and adding that bonus makes it that much more useful, yet doesn't have it rival Imperialistic in any way.

And I certainly like the extra Hammers with the Industrious trait. I used to hem and haw whenever I randomly rolled an Industrious civ since building Wonders is not a big priority for me, but now I really look forward to playing one if I get it. I think part of the problem is that Firaxis assumed that everyone would gravitate to a particular civ that fit their own style, but sometimes that kinds of screws those of us who like to play random civs. Industrious didn't fit into my play style in any way but now it does. I'd say that makes it a more balanced trait. Same thing with Organized with the extra trade yield, it should now rival Financial economically. Or at least come close. Financial never had any sort of competition on that front but now there's another option, without any sort of duplication.

[wodan11]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. Except maybe to point out that one person's play style doesn't mean there aren't issues with other play styles.

Anyway farbeit for me to say Firaxis' design was perfect.

[Theben]

Protective does seem weak but it can shine thru once you reach crossbows and beyond... Drill I for crossbows and gunpowder units can be used offensively, and it counts as a stepstone towards promotions like shock, cover, and charge.

[wodan11]

Protective isn't one big bonus like FIN and others, it's a bunch of little bonuses. I think most people devalue each of the little bonuses in isolation, and thus their mental sum total doesn't match up.

[Ming]

While Protective wouldn't be my first choice, it can be very valuable and useful. Just think about all those civs you don't rush early because they have protective archers in their cities... you usually look for an easier target.

And later on, you can create some killer crossbowman, longbowman, and gunpowder units. I don't think it should be considered a weak trait. If you know how to use it, it can be very effective. Especially if you are the North Americans

[Willem]

Well I personally have never considered Protective weak but that's pretty much the common consensus. If you play more of a builder/defensive style especially it's a good trait to have. But I really like the idea of having a GG bonus on domestic soil as well. That ability has such a strong synergy for that trait. Same thing with the Hammer bonus for Industrious and trade route bonus for Organized. These all just seem like no-brainers to me and they help bring all those traits in line with Financial or Philosophical.

[sorinache]

Another flag not being used is a Trade Yield modifier. When I tried it out I discovered that I could give a particular trait a +1 commerce to all their trade routes, or more if I wanted to. That seemed like a natural for the Organized trait which, though not bad, is a bit weak economically compared to Financial. Getting that extra trade route yield should bring the two pretty close though.

I disagree with you here - IMO Organized is one of the most powerful traits. Even if it's not as powerful as financial, it still is probably the second most powerful. This is why Darius is possibly the easier leader to play.

[Unimatrix11]

A bit off topic: Just recently, i had the idea, that maybe the traits should be spread among the techs, pretty much like religions, and you adopt the first two you research. Say, financial comes with currency - then, if you want to be financial, you would try to get that, before you get to two other techs, that grant you other traits, because in that case, your two trait-slots would have been already occupied.

I always wished, that you could choose your leader, after you get your terrain presented - so roll map first, then pick civ. But the way described above could even be better gameplay-wise...

I hope you get what i am trying to say, and am very interested in your opinion on this.

[Theben]

I had a similar opinion wrt UUs. Either by tech or by local terrain. I'm not sure I'd like my leader traits determined by techs, tho.

Personally I'd like to be able to pick my leaders AND their traits before game start, w/o a mod.

[Willem]

I disagree with you here - IMO Organized is one of the most powerful traits. Even if it's not as powerful as financial, it still is probably the second most powerful. This is why Darius is possibly the easier leader to play.

Certainly it's up at the top as far as traits go, but it doesn't quite compare to Financial, even though both are basically economic traits. Adding that extra commerce per trade route helps to even things out though.

[wodan11]

I disagree with you here - IMO Organized is one of the most powerful traits. Even if it's not as powerful as financial, it still is probably the second most powerful. This is why Darius is possibly the easier leader to play.

Organized lets you have a bigger early empire which is huge. Fin can't really do that unless you are on an island map especially with Colossus. Fin OTOH accelerates the economic growth potential of each city which is an entirely different prospect. Since however it doesn't help with costs which ramp up exponentially, it helps but is not an effective solution to maintanance costs.

Using graph lingo, Org flattens the exponential expense curve. Fin applies a multiplicative bonus to your income curve. Since exponential increases faster than multiplicative curves, Org wins out in the early game and Fin wins out when it finally gets help against the exponential part (basically CoL).

[sorinache]

Certainly it's up at the top as far as traits go, but it doesn't quite compare to Financial, even though both are basically economic traits. Adding that extra commerce per trade route helps to even things out though.

This reasoning would hold if Fin and Org were the ONLY available traits ... But if, as many people seem to agree, Fin and Org are the two most powerful traits (in whichever order) out of, what, 10 traits, then increasing one of them only decreases the overall game balance by making the other 8 even less attractive. I mean, think about Spiritual - do you really need to boost Org in order to choose it over Spiritual or would you, like me, rather be Org than Spi any day, even w/o the extra commerce ?

[Willem]

I mean, think about Spiritual - do you really need to boost Org in order to choose it over Spiritual or would you, like me, rather be Org than Spi any day, even w/o the extra commerce ?

I'd personally take Spiritual over Organized any time. IMO it can be a much more powerful trait, if used properly. It has it's limitations early on when you only have a few civics to choose from but by the end of the game it can be very powerful indeed.