Culture-flipping cities not working anymore ?

[sorinache]

In my last vanilla game (playing Emperor as the chinese on an archipelago map) I managed to culture-flip a persian city (Cyrus happened to start on my land mass and since I'm not a violent guy we were otherwise good friends all game long). Culture-flipping a very large city (started at 17, it was down to 8 when it chose to join the Middle Empire) felt just great. Extremely satisfying.

Now I've embarked on a new game in BtS 3.17, playing Emperor as Darius the Persian on a "tectonic" map with 8 oponents.

As chance has it, the map might as well have been a "pangaea" : there is only one huge landmass and no island whatsoever. We are all huddled together: Zara Yaqub of the Ethiopians, Wang Kon of the Koreans, Frederick of the Germans, Alexander of the Greeks, Washington of the Americans, a chinese leader (forgot his name, not Mao) and Mansa Musa the malian. Egypt was probably present as well but they never got a chance - Thebes was Malian already when I discovered it.

I got lucky by being the only one to start south of the jungle belt. As a consequence, I enjoyed a long period of basically no trouble : in the North, bellicose Alexander was keeping everyone busy. I expanded by bounds and leaps, going after precious resources and well developed barbarian cities and leaving gaping holes in my territory coverage. Being the "improver" kind of guy, I find it difficult to choose to build a settler and an archer over choosing to build a monastery, a temple or other improvement. Frederick of the germans OTOH, was expanding like crazy and he managed to drill a corridor of cities sandwiched between my cities making use of marginal terrain (lots of desert, mountain ranges and dry steppes). He built Dresden, Leipzig, Bonn and Bochum and succeeded in splitting my territory into a main eastern part and a western part with just two cities, Ainu and Hun (big barbarian cities I captured).

Since Ainu had a serious head start (I captured it when it had a population of 6), it grew into a big metropolis overshadowing its neighbours. After experiencing a culture-shock in my previous BtS game (playing english, an AI carthaginian city was spewing out so much cultural influence that it almost throttled my "heroic epic + west point" city and impaired two other important cities of mine), I decided I had to avoid a similar situation. Thus Ainu built the forbidden palace and Hermitage.

This led to a reversed situation compared to the previous game : this time I am the one throttling the german cities that were foolish enough to try to split my territory. Most notably, I reduced Dresden to just 1 of population : all its territory is persian, it has no tile to exploit. When hovering above it with the cursor, it says 56% persian, 44% german. Yet it didn't revolt and won't ask to join the persian empire. Not only that, but trying to negociate with Frederick ("pleased" with me despite the border tension) giving up Dresden is not even up for consideration : "Over our dead body" ...

I know BtS offers an option "No city flipping through culture" but I believe this option is not "ticked" by default. Am I wrong ? I certainly did not tick it. Why Dresden, whose population is mostly persian, would not want to join my empire ? Why wouldn't Frederick consider giving it up (for a fee maybe) ?

It's kinda frustrating since now, Dresden being at 1, even if I attack and capture it it will be destroyed

Any idea ?

BtW - for Theben (the dancing Hobbes) : year is 1828 and I'm again running 100% science (with a small, positive cash-flow into the treasury). I have 15 cities and produce in excess of 3000 science beakers per turn. Having founded confucianism, taoism and islam, built the 3 corresponding great shrines and actively spread the three religions has most probably a lot to do with it. I consider uploading a few screen shots when I get home and figure out how to do it

[Supr49er]

... It's kinda frustrating since now, Dresden being at 1, even if I attack and capture it it will be destroyed ...

Dresden won't be destroyed since it was over population 1 at some point.
Feel free to take it.

[eris]

One thing that affects culture flipping is the amount of troops in the city. After about nine or ten strong troops, the chances for culture flipping get really low. This is useful to know if you are protecting a culturally swamped city that you have just captured. That could be affecting things.


You mention having 56% culture in their city plot. I know it is a compleicated formula for culture flipping, but I would guess that 56% is still kind of low for culture flipping.

As for taking the city of Dresden, if it was ever a city of population greater than 1, or it has cultually expanded to level 2, then it will not automatically raze when you capture it.

[Blaupanzer]

Yes, culture flipping appears to either be drastically swept back or disabled. Your example is one of overwhelming control -- every tile in the BFC and >50% in the city tile. Nonetheless it won't revolt, and it won't switch when occupied by its original owner. The only switches I have seen since the 3.17 patch (maybe before) are when a city captured by a second owner gets swamped by culture from a third party. I've given up on the tactic, which worked well in Warlords, of surrounding a "foreign city in "my" territory. That little city will hold out forever, even against cultural giant cities on all sides.

[sorinache]

Yes, culture flipping appears to either be drastically swept back or disabled. Your example is one of overwhelming control -- every tile in the BFC and >50% in the city tile. Nonetheless it won't revolt, and it won't switch when occupied by its original owner. The only switches I have seen since the 3.17 patch (maybe before) are when a city captured by a second owner gets swamped by culture from a third party. I've given up on the tactic, which worked well in Warlords, of surrounding a "foreign city in "my" territory. That little city will hold out forever, even against cultural giant cities on all sides.

Good to know. Now that I have confirmation I can ponder my options

[sorinache]

Dresden won't be destroyed since it was over population 1 at some point.
Feel free to take it.

Errr, ok, so maybe I misled some of you ... it's not like I actually feel I CAN take it, you know ...

I mean, me being the "friendly builder" kind of guy, my armed forces are no match for the german Panzers (which are not blue, btw . I do have a small bunch of mech infs, but I doubt I can attack right now. I'd rather develop advanced flight to be able to upgrade my cavalries into gunships before taking on Frederick ... yeah, call me a wimp !

But Dresden, Leipzig, Bonn and Bochum would nicely fit into my empire, that is for sure.

[Theben]

Build a large army, declare war, let him attack you and kill his SoD, then take all 4 cities. Mech Inf can handle panzers.

Oh, and culture flipping still happens but it's a lot less likely in 3.17 BtS. I remember a vanilla game where I flipped 4 or 5 arab cities due to a huge imbalance in culture.

[Willem]

I know BtS offers an option "No city flipping through culture" but I believe this option is not "ticked" by default. Am I wrong ?

You are correct. That's something you need to select yourself in a Custom game.

Why Dresden, whose population is mostly persian, would not want to join my empire ?

The AI in BtS is alot better at dealing with cultural issues than it was in previous versions. I've noticed in my border cities that I quite often have to work at it to keep a neighbour's borders from encroaching on my territory. In the past I never had to worry about too much, just build a few basic buildings here and there. Well not any more, especially if you hope to flip some city. It's a conquest that can now be as challenging as taking it over with some troops.

Why wouldn't Frederick consider giving it up (for a fee maybe) ?

Unless you've beaten him badly in a war, he will never let go it. The AI is extremely stubborn when it comes to letting go of their cities. In fact I don't believe they would let it go under any circumstances. At least not willingly.

[Blaupanzer]

The AI appears to be programmed to NEVER give up their own citizens in a trade. This may not be realistic in the BC period of earth history. However, the emergence of nationalism includes that in the very grain of most major powers. The AI grasps and executes that policy without variation. They will only trade cities that don't have their population or if they are in dire straits and desperately need to stop the war to prevent extinction.

[joncnunn]

The AI will often be willing to capitulate before being willing to surrender a city that's really important. As it turns out though, a good part of the time, when they are willing to capitulate they are also willing to throw in a semi-decent city on top of the capitulation [often the next city that would have been taken].

[wodan11]

IMO what the BtS AI does is run Caste or whip/cashrush a Theatre and then run artists, precisely because it's now smart enough to realize when it's got incredible cultural pressure. IMO this is a good thing. Otherwise, it would be an exploit.

On the other hand, ask yourself whether you would rather the AI run artists or work cottages / whip units or whatever.