Vassals

[sorinache]

I was thinking about experimenting with vassals (first game of BtS). I read once you vassalize a Civ you get access to their ressources. The Zulu are waaaay behind in tech (they have macemen because I felt generous and sold them civil service for 250 gold, almost everybody else has infantry, I have tanks). And they have 4 wine they won't trade with me. They trade wine with the koreans for spices, and I don't have spices either.

Now if I vassalize them, I'll have 4 wine and they won't have wine anymore ? Or I have 1 wine and they'll have 3 left ? How does it work ? I'm interested in having as much wine as possible (so I can trade it for other nice things).
Can I order them to stop trading with the koreans (so it frees a spice resource I could be able to get from the koreans) ? Other than that I could also conquer their wine-producing cities but that feels like a hassle - they are on a far away, big but underveloped landmass (many big cities, little roads, no railroads, of course) and I suspect I don't have much to gain from conquering them (except the wine, that is).

Also, I read some downsides to vassalising - for instance, they are the egyptians "worst ennemies" and I prefer to be on good terms with the egyptians because they provide me with critical ressources. If I vassalize the Zulus, can I get them to "apologize" (or whatever) to the egyptians and the latter to "forgive and forget" the raucous past of the zulus and consider them with fresh eyes because they are my vassals ?

[Sarco]

If I remember correctly, you don't suffer any diplomatic penalty for your vassals' dipomatic status. If you want to boost your relations with Egypt, you might bring them into a war with the Zulu (together with you). Then when you vassalize the Zulu I think their war with Egypt ends.

You might have to conquer a few of their cities to make them your vassals, and this will cost you in terms of maintenance. However you can run state property to lower this cost, or give them back to the Zulu afterwards (as long as they don't get big enough to cancel the vassalization), set them free as a colony or give them to someone else (Egypt? )

Personally I wouldn't start a war only to get Wine but they might have something else that's good too and if you can afford it war is always fun...

You have a better chance to order your vassal state around, but I think that if you demand too much they may refuse. Not so sure here.

[sorinache]

If I remember correctly, you don't suffer any diplomatic penalty for your vassals' dipomatic status. If you want to boost your relations with Egypt, you might bring them into a war with the Zulu (together with you). Then when you vassalize the Zulu I think their war with Egypt ends.

You might have to conquer a few of their cities to make them your vassals, and this will cost you in terms of maintenance.

Yes, this is what I fear.

However you can run state property to lower this cost,

I'd prefer not to tread down this path as I founded a Corporation (Mining something) and become addicted to the extra hammers it's providing to my cities

or give them back to the Zulu afterwards (as long as they don't get big enough to cancel the vassalization), set them free as a colony or give them to someone else (Egypt? )

This is what I want to experiment with

Personally I wouldn't start a war only to get Wine but they might have something else that's good too and if you can afford it war is always fun...

I seem to be able to afford the war. And good wine is worth every sacrifice ! No, seriously, getting 4 wine would have very, very positive knock-on effects

You have a better chance to order your vassal state around, but I think that if you demand too much they may refuse. Not so sure here.

[wodan11]

You don't get your vassal's resources automatically. They are more inclined to accept a trade with you, even with a poor relations rating. And, you have the option to demand the resource and if they refuse they revert to a war status with you.

[sorinache]

You don't get your vassal's resources automatically. They are more inclined to accept a trade with you, even with a poor relations rating. And, you have the option to demand the resource and if they refuse they revert to a war status with you.

Which basically means I need to conquer their wine cities and hold onto them ... not that easy (building up the culture and everything ...)

[joncnunn]

If you just want somebody's ONLY copy of resource while you continue to have extras, a vassal will accept your extra in return for their only resource. Non Vassals will generally not trade their only copy of a resource away. And no matter how poor relations get vassals are willing to trade resources with their master.

You don't pay maintenance on the vassals cities. But their cities count as yours when figuring the total city portion of the maintenance costs of your cities. You'll also gain a +1 happiness bonus in all your cities. It's generally not a big deal, in large part because you need to have so much more land and population for that person to be willing to become your vassal.

The vassal loses the ability to declare war and peace and is locked to the masters status.

[#07]

Also, I read some downsides to vassalising - for instance, they are the egyptians "worst ennemies" and I prefer to be on good terms with the egyptians because they provide me with critical ressources. If I vassalize the Zulus, can I get them to "apologize" (or whatever) to the egyptians and the latter to "forgive and forget" the raucous past of the zulus and consider them with fresh eyes because they are my vassals ?

The Egyptions will still hate the Zulu's if you vassalise them, and you will get a penalty for "we are upset that our rivals are vassals of your state" or however they put it. Actually from most other nations you will get a -1 for this, but I think it depends on how much they hate your vassal. In any case there will be a penalty.

[joncnunn]

It looked to me like those that really like your vassal won't care, those that are about indifferent to your vassal will give you a -1 and those that can't stand your vassal give you a -2.

It's still fairly minor, those that already didn't like you don't like you even more, and you need some military just to get anybody to become your vassal.

[bobbo008]

In one game I vassalized nearly all of the other nations on my continent (6 out of 8), and it appears that dislike for one's vassals is not cumulative. The worst relationship problems due to my vassals was -2.

Can anyone corroborate this?

[joncnunn]

In my previous game, I recall seeing one person giving me a -3 when I had two vassals; that civ couldn't stand one of my vassals at all and didn't particularly like the other as well. Most gave me a -2, a few more -1, a couple didn't care at all.

In any case I didn't care what those other civs thought since I was very far ahead in techs and had a large enough military.

[Boracks]

Highest I've seen as a diplomatic hit for vassals is -3, usually only -1 and sometimes -2.

[joncnunn]

My current game: The major world war on a Arobia [sp?] Map just ended. As a result I now have FIVE vassals (2 voluntary, 3 involuntary). The one remaining civ in the game (Catherine) is giving me a -4 diplomatic hit for vassals. (She was still winning to sign a defensive pact which I did just for the +2 offset and just in case the voluntary ones leave.)

I seem to have more than enough population for a domination victory, but am currently about 14 percentage points below threshold in territory but several of the newly conquered cities are still in revolt.

(This game is a shadow of RB's tree hugger's; mostly since I didn't start it until a few weeks after their closing date.)