The Internet

[johnmcd]

It seems a bit odd to me that the internet wonder is 'built' so to speak. It feels like it ought to be more like the circumnavigation bonus than something you build.

Anyway, I was thinking a more appropriate approach might be that when two civs have computers then the internet is created and all civs get any tech which is known by, say, four other civs.

It would allow for some serious catch up in the end game, which I think would improve balance and improve the games match to reality. Something similar but weaker in impact could be implemented for printing press.

Afterall, the idea that the whole planet can have knowledge of gunpowder while some benighted mob struggle on oblivious is pretty ridiculous.

[joncnunn]

Personally, I build it to cement a tech lead.
As far as I can determine, in Civ series, most techs aren't merely theoritic knowlege (e.g. gunpowder is needed to make early firearms), but also includes the technological base needed to make them widely avaiable. (Some countries today don't have the technological base to manufacture firearms. Even more don't have the technological base to manfacture them cheaper than those already on the market.)

[johnmcd]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Personally, I build it to cement a tech lead.
As far as I can determine, in Civ series, most techs aren't merely theoritic knowlege (e.g. gunpowder is needed to make early firearms), but also includes the technological base needed to make them widely avaiable. (Some countries today don't have the technological base to manufacture firearms. Even more don't have the technological base to manfacture them cheaper than those already on the market.)

Well, that's why I build it too, but the idea that the greatest sharing technology ever invented should be represented by a profoundly selfish expression seems kind of perverse to me. The internet is about opening things up, the Civ implementation doesn't do that.

It's true that lots of countries can't manufacture or design the best weapons at the lowest cost and so they import them. However, the game doesn't work on those lines; as the game makes it impossible to be only able to build airships but to buy in jets I'm not sure that real world example is relevant.

Also, it's not helpful to think in terms of countries when thinking of real world parallels, you have to think in terms of huge power blocks, Western Europe, Middle East, South America and so on to get parallels to the dozen or so Civs in a normal game. There aren't many blocks that can't perform just behind the bleeding edge unaided and that's all I'm suggesting, access to the techs just behind the bleeding edge.

[Unimatrix11]

Originally posted by johnmcd

....
It's true that lots of countries can't manufacture or design the best weapons at the lowest cost and so they import them. However, the game doesn't work on those lines; as the game makes it impossible to be only able to build airships but to buy in jets I'm not sure that real world example is relevant.
...

True in SP. Very interesting idea for MP though. I mean i can do that right ? Buy jets from my human buddy (give him gold and he gives me his units) even if i havent discovered advanced flight yet, right ? Same with nukes. That could make for some nasty surprises: Yeah, i have neither fission nor rockets, but you know: *kaboom*, i got a friend who has, but doesnt want to use them himself...

[johnmcd]

Originally posted by Unimatrix11


True in SP. Very interesting idea for MP though. I mean i can do that right ? Buy jets from my human buddy (give him gold and he gives me his units) even if i havent discovered advanced flight yet, right ? Same with nukes. That could make for some nasty surprises: Yeah, i have neither fission nor rockets, but you know: *kaboom*, i got a friend who has, but doesnt want to use them himself...

Absolutely, it should be in there if the AI could work out how to do it, it's hugely important industry and can be used well to balance strategic goals, but the closest you can come to it in the game is offering a missing strategic resource or handing over the tech.

[joncnunn]

Actually if the HUMAN is the one with the tech lead; he can easily give them more advanced units than they have. It's just that it doesn't seem the AI would do that in return.

[johnmcd]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Actually if the HUMAN is the one with the tech lead; he can easily give them more advanced units than they have. It's just that it doesn't seem the AI would do that in return.

You can give the units, but not for cash or resources or tech or whatever. It's not really part of the game.

I sometimes give super powered units to some beaten down Civ I feel sorry for at the end so they can tear strips off whoever it is that's been persecuting them. It would be nice if it became part of the trading options in the game, eight longbow men for meditation or twenty modern armour for five thousand gold.

[Unimatrix11]

For that, i´d suggest to have namable stacks (à la paradox), so that if you wanna give units, you can make a stack, name it, and then, in the diplo-screen, only stacks appear as ´giveable units´. This way, you know which units you give (e.g. where they are - could be tricky when selecting individual units) and it would make the process quicker, too. (if you name an individual unit, it would count as stack, too, in case you wanna only give away a single unit). Open borders would be an obvious requirement for any such deal.

Of course, the main problem with this would be A.I. handling (valueing of units vs. other assets) and possible exploits (i cant think of any right now, but am pretty sure, that without anything else added, there would be some exploit, probably).

[Blaupanzer]

Trading units for anything else is so easily exploitable by humans that the the designers gave up on trying to assist the AI in figuring it out. The developers do not think of actual trade in goods and mercenaries. Soldiers as companies for hire or a forge as a buyable item is beyond the capability of the current design. The designers completely ignore free trade and relative advantage (per Adam Smith). Their corporations look precisely like the Communist image of corporations, vast exploitation mechanisms built to create monoplies or near monoplies on raw materials.

As to the Internet, same thinking on part of the designers. The tech doesn't open up the world's knowledge at either a civ or general population level. Only benefit is the ability of the builder to exploit it for techs known by others. In fact, the Internet should be a team project that increases the tech rate of all members and as suggested above shares the techs with all if known by at least four civs (+ or - , four is a testable proposition). This project should also provide a set number of beakers to the building city (instead of culture like other wonders). In SP, the "team" would be the builder and all other vassals plus the master, however these all relate.

[Unimatrix11]

So You are saying, Blaupanzer, that a free market opens up all sorts of exploit-options, if those acting in it, are not smart enough to handle it ? Only realistic to me...

[johnmcd]

Blaupanzer's idea of it as a project would be quite cool. It could be like Manhatten, and when built everyone needs to opt in or out. If you opt in you get the advantages, but your tech is up for grabs through it too, if you opt out then your tech isn't on the table for anyone and you cannot gain through it either.

The builder would need some extra perk, a free great scientist or something maybe.

[Unimatrix11]

Acually, i dont like the Manhattan Project the way it´s handled. It should be a national wonder - it could be cheaper for each one build in the world, maybe, tho.

But on the Internet, i´d say, i´d agree: The boost for the participants should be tied to an improvement though, maybe the laboratory (make it +50%, instead of +25%, and like with the russian UB).

The question is, tho, who may participate. The situation in RL seems to be that everyone´s invited, but that doesnt need to be so, does it? So i suggest: Everyone can build his own, but doesnt have to, if he can connect to someone else, which is a one-time-grant (not cancelable, except by vassalization by a 3rd party for any of the two) via the diplo-menu. And make the X in +X% (above 25) beakers for the labs 1 for each city with a lab connected through this net.

So someone builds it (or rather: ´one´): He wants others to connect to his net, because that grants him a higher bonus for his labs. The others may or may not want to share a net with him. If they do, they get the same bonus as him, but if they dont, they will still get the bonus for each lab they build (after having build their own net), and if they have more cities (with labs), that may make sense. No additional bonus needed for the builder (except having the privellige of admiting applicants), really.

Nets should be mergable, too, btw.

EDIT: oops - i totally forgot about the ´sharing all techs´ part. Well, i dunno about this. If you´re buddies, you can still just exchange them the old way, right? That aspect of it is more like a spying thing. I´d drop it TBH. It´s odd to learn about horseback riding on the internet - thats not quite it´s purpose.

[Blaupanzer]

The tech thing was part of my point. The Internet's chief advantage in the game is to steal the techs known by at least two other civs. In RL, the internet really opens the knowledge and communication base but isn't used, AFIK, to "steal" basic technologies. Yes, various organizations and individuals use it to steal tiny little subtechs relative to the game's techs, but no one could steal industrialism or flight from the internet.

As to free markets, I am rather fond of them actually. But socialists distrust them as sources of potential exploitation (which does occur). The game reflects that latter view, showing the in-game corporations as exploiters of raw materials generating income and costs and adding culture. Perhaps at this level of abstraction, that is the best they can do, although nothing prevents the development of competing corps.

Still, imagine if they had done that for factories, one for ground vehicles, one for planes, one for missiles, one for machine tools to support the first three, undsoweiter. Would take 100 turns just to develop the industrial complex in each city. Well, what do you know, that is about how many years it took originally, c. 1840 - c. 1940, give or take a few years world wide. All this would be way over-the-top in terms of details the player would have to manage.