N00b questions continue: how do I not blow this?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Well, so here's how it's turning out. With no rush-building capabilities, it took me from 1700-1810 to build up a stack to take the French (4 cannons, 4 cavalry, 4 riflemen, 2 grenadiers. They rolled obligingly; I kept three cities and razed one, only to have the Arabs sneak a city in on the exact same spot (I leave it alone, counting rightly on a culture flip).

Now it's time to build that navy, but -- d'oh! --- even though I control more tiles than anyone else, I have no oil. Luckily, the only tile I don't control on my land mass -- in the barren wastelands to the far south -- has oil; unfortunately, it's in English territory, and the English have been useful allies. I plop a city down right next to teh oil and hope to grab it with culture; this process is hastened by Montezuma, who sacks the English city giving me trouble. So I'll have trouble with Monty later, but at least I'll have a navy (and Panzers!) when it happens.

By now, however, it's the late 19th century. I've only got 20% of the land and an army barely worth the name, so domination seems out. My three most cutural cities have culture of 20k, 12k, and 10k; getting all 3 to 50k by the end of the game doesn't seem possible (am I wrong abouth that?). So space race it is; I shut down in 1975, with casings built and space elevator about to start construction.

So, not a great game, but I did learn a few things and you guys definitely helped. The one thing that now seems true to me -- and I'd like your opinion on this -- is that winning a cultural victory requires very early focus on that particular victory; getting 3 cities to 50k while playing a more open-ended game doesn't really seem possible. True?

Anyway, thanks again!

[LDiCesare]

Yes, cultural wins better be prepared early. You'll need religions, need to spread those you didn't found into enough cities to build the corresponding cathedrals/mosques/pagodas/... Also, early build of culture production buildings yields more benefit, as old buildings give more culture. Specialists (great artists) are also very useful, and starting to crank them late is not very efficient.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Yeah, that's the sense I now have. I think I'll try a straight culture-victory game for that next time, probably playing this same civ (cultural/philosphical seems like the best profile, though I could see cultural/spiritual working too.

[Solomwi]

One thing to keep in mind is that domination is probably the easiest victory condition in which to make up a lot of ground in relatively little time. You can start the ball rolling with the forces you have on hand, and just keep pumping out troops non-stop until you've won.

[Blaupanzer]

If it took you 110 years to build 14 units, you must have both very few cities and an unusual power chart. My experience is that Montezuma would have at least two 20 unit stacks by this point as well as 2 or 3 units per city. And that would be at Noble at normal speed. The game mechanics encourage a large army even for defensive wins like spaceship and cultural.

Other threads have addressed cultural. AFAIK you need to get several religions and get them spread early. Also at least one monastery per religion. Building the actual religious buildings and combining these with corporations and Free Speech can apparently produce intense cultural bursts necessary to win that victory.

[Sarco]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Yeah, that's the sense I now have. I think I'll try a straight culture-victory game for that next time, probably playing this same civ (cultural/philosphical seems like the best profile, though I could see cultural/spiritual working too.

In my cultural games I've played an industrious civ, since that allows you to get the wonders that you don't really need. It's very helpful in the early game when you can throw in an extra wonder or two that just stands there building culture for the rest of the game.

I'm no master of the game by any means, just recently started at monarch, but I'd recommend industrious as your first choice. To make it simpler, try the Incas who are seriously overpowered (quechua, terrace and finacial/industrious).

[Blaupanzer]

Buildings that provide culture and are built early in the game will double, then quadruple the amount of culture per turn. Those built mid-game will double cultural output per turn by the modern period. So when a building gets built matters for cultural boundary-setting and for cultural wins.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer
Buildings that provide culture and are built early in the game will double, then quadruple the amount of culture per turn. Those built mid-game will double cultural output per turn by the modern period. So when a building gets built matters for cultural boundary-setting and for cultural wins.

Didn't know that; thanks!

@Sarco - Yeah, industrious occurred to me only after I posted that. I'm now in the midst of my first attempt at a culture win, playing as the cultural/industrious French. I don't think I'm going to make it, though it's still technically possible (it's 1914, and my 3 cities have 20, 21, and 24 k culture and are cranking out about 250 culture per turn), but it's been very instructive to play.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


Didn't know that; thanks!

@Sarco - Yeah, industrious occurred to me only after I posted that. I'm now in the midst of my first attempt at a culture win, playing as the cultural/industrious French. I don't think I'm going to make it, though it's still technically possible (it's 1914, and my 3 cities have 20, 21, and 24 k culture and are cranking out about 250 culture per turn), but it's been very instructive to play.

You're doing something wrong... they should easily be cranking 750+ / turn. If you want to post a save we can critique it for you, if you like.

[Fleme]

Indeed, giving advice would be a lot easier if there was a save and/or screenshots posted. Maybe even start a game, post the initial game and go through the game in phases so we can shadow it and you can compare your own performance with others.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by wodan11

You're doing something wrong... they should easily be cranking 750+ / turn. If you want to post a save we can critique it for you, if you like.

Well, I won it -- 2nd best game and earliest finish ever (1999) -- but, yes, I'm sure I did many things wrong (still, it was my first try).

I did manage to found 3 religions, and all three of my cities had multiple monasteries, temples, and cathedrals (the two that were religion founders also had the appropriate wonders).

But my biggest problem, I think, was that I expanded too rapidly, which slowed down my research early in the game; this subsequently cost me a lot of world wonders (I think I built 5 in the entire game, and only 2 early: Parthenon and Angkor Wat, then the Eiffel Tower, Hollywood, and Rock & Roll), and greatly delayed my access to national wonders. It also meant that I ended up keeping the percentage of my expenditures devoted to research vs. culture at 60-30 until near the end of the game, just to make sure my military wasn't so obsolete as to invite invasion.

So I now find myself with a couple more questions:

1) I built 6 cities before 1 A.D., then built 3 more and conquered a barb city by 900 AD. Too much?

2) I used Great Artists to create a work of art in whichever of the 3 cities was farthest behind, so they were all pretty much even (and all hit legendary within a few turns of each other). Would it have been better to put all the works of art in one city until it hit legendary, then switch to the second, etc.? Why or why not?

3) My early tech tree went Polytheism-Bronze Working-Code of Laws-Philosophy-Literature. Good plan? Bad plan?

4) I really wasn't sure what to do with the land around my culture cities; food would have helped generate specialists, but coin would have gone straight to culture, and of course production helps build culture-generating buildings and wonders faster. Advice?

5) National wonders: one city had Oxford and Wall Street, the second had National Epic and Globe Theater, the third had the Forbidden palace and the Hermitage. Better choices? Better combinations?

Thanks in advance!

[Fleme]

1) Not too much. I found as many cities as I possibly can (that's saying as many as my finances allow) because landgrab is an essential part of the early game and I often run my economy at 0% science and fuel my research with scientist specialist (coincidentally, a key part of my most common strategy is getting Pyramids-Representation). All in all, like this you can support a relatively large empire (up to 10 cities depending on terrain and distances) while still having a decent research rate. Slavery helps with construction needs and since you don't really want your cities to grow past size 5 (atleast on Emperor-Immortal you don't) at this point the scientists do a marvelous job at thwarting your growth as well as keeping you up to speed. Alternatively, an early cottage economy is also a viable option but it's slower than specialists at first.

2) That's fine when you're aiming for cultural and is what I do. If you really want to push up your cultural win dates, try and getting as many religions as possible (5-6) either by founding them or by conversion and plan the cultural win from the very start. Wonders like Stonehenge, Parthenon, Statue of Zeus etc. are wonderful for culture since they'll double their culture output after 1000 years of use just like any building. The thing about them is that you get them so early so they'll be doing a lot more than those late wonders. Another essential wonder for cultural win is the Sistine Chapel. (are any of the wonders I mention here in vanilla? Either way, early cultural wonders are good regardless) If you maintain a state religion while having SC, all your religions buildings will be worth comparable to wonders (12 from old temples, 14 from old monasteries) and as such, significantly help you. If you manage to get a bunch of religions, just have your empire whip temples of each religion to as many cities as possible and then build as many cathedrals as possible to your to-be-legendary cities. Later on in the game towns will be great for culture. Once you reach the technological level you want (nationalism-divine right~) you can just crank up the culture slider and reap the benefits.

3) Tech tree is dictated by surrounding terrain and enemies. However, I often prioritize masonry and literature if we're talking about specific early goals.

4) Later on, towns are by far the best thing you can have going for you in terms of raw culture since that 7-9 commerce translates to an equal amount of culture plus bonuses. I personally advocate the use of specialists since you get access to them early on and most of my economies are powered by those scientists and this translates easily to an artist economy just as well. However, I must insist that terrain pretty much dictates your choices. A city with 2-3 food resources is a natural GP farm and should be treated as such (although you should have a few towns growing here so you can switch over to using them after the GP rate gets too slow to be worth it anymore) while a grassland riverside city should focus on it's strengths and get it's culture from commerce (eventually) and those more hilly regions should fuel their culture by building wonders.

5) I used to build my Oxford and Wall Street in one city and if one of your cities is far superior in terms of commerce to your other cities, I still support this. However, more often than not it turns out that you have a holy city with a profitable shrine but next to no commerce. It'll still be worth it to build your Wall Street here but your Oxford should in these cases go to either your scientist farm or an unrelated commerce-rich city. If located in your GP farm, it should be accompanied by NE. I personally like to pair Hermitage and Globe Theatre if I'm looking for culture since the GT yields a lot of culture and as such benefits Hermitage the most. Furthermore, I often locate these in that one "production" city that can't get culture from commerce and needs the extra nudge. Again, you don't necessarily need to worry about the national wonders except GT and Hermitage if you're aiming for a cultural win since the others don't really have a lot of effect in terms of raw culture. On this note, however, I must insist that you build your National Epic sooner rather than later to get the most out of it. A city with 2-3 food resources can easily be running 5 or 6 specialists topped with something nice like the Great Library for another 2 and having NE there will make it that much sweeter. You'll be popping scientists like nothing and can use these to sling your way towards liberalism like nobody's business.

[Sarco]

1) No, that's not expanding too fast. I have played cottage economies (I'm just now learning to use specialists properly ) and I as long as you have kept building cottages and courthouses you should be fine.

2) Personally I save my great artists for use when I know where they'll be needed. Last game (Incas, monarch, finish 1911, but that's with BtS) I had two cities reach legendary about 80 turns before the last one due to lots of wars, artists helped reduce that figure by miles. So I suppose the point of saving artists is keeping an option for flexibility.

3) This will be dictated by terrain, resources and what threats you face. Research sciences that gives you wonders you think you can pull off - Oracle, Parthenon and Great Library comes to mind. Pyramids is good in any game. It can be more rewarding to sacrifice building a wonder or two if it means you can conquer a neighbour.

4) I have used my culture-cities with an emphasis on production to crank out the buildings as fast as possible while managing to build a unit or two in between. I don't know if that's optimal though since I haven't used specialists that well. I have also used cottages, switching for farms when I have started the final rush with caste system artists.

5) Due to being flexible with production, I usually have one of the three cities lagging behind. That city gets hermitage and as many of the late game cultural wonders as possible. I have used oxford and wall street in a different commerce city (I don't know if this is optimal). NE goes where you can run most specialists of the three (for me, capital usually has most wonders and reaches cap first. NE-city is second, last game it was the captured neighbour capital).

Not that good answers, but I'm no theorycrafter. Just saying what I've experienced.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
But my biggest problem, I think, was that I expanded too rapidly, which slowed down my research early in the game

That can be a problem, but not for the reason you state....

this subsequently cost me a lot of world wonders

You don't need wonders to perform a cultural victory. In fact, they can be a distraction that costs you way more than the benefit they provide.

It also meant that I ended up keeping the percentage of my expenditures devoted to research vs. culture at 60-30 until near the end of the game, just to make sure my military wasn't so obsolete as to invite invasion.

I would recommend you change that approach. In my experience, a better way to get a cultural victory is to build your infrastructre and tech "normally" with 0% on the culture slider. Then, when and only when you are ready, crank the culture slider to 100%.

2) I used Great Artists to create a work of art in whichever of the 3 cities was farthest behind

I would suggest settling the great artist in the city with the least max food (which will matter when you crank your slider to 100% and try to run max Artist specialists and/or work max cottages in those cities) ONLY up until about 1AD. After that, I would simply fortify the Great Artist in your capitol, and save until the last 10 turns of the game to do your Great Work at that time. This allows you to more correctly estimate which city is in the most need of help. Also, the AI *does* pay attention and will declare war if you're about to win a culture victory. Saving this till the end will prevent that.

4) I really wasn't sure what to do with the land around my culture cities; food would have helped generate specialists, but coin would have gone straight to culture, and of course production helps build culture-generating buildings and wonders faster. Advice?

See above.

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer
Buildings that provide culture and are built early in the game will double, then quadruple the amount of culture per turn. Those built mid-game will double cultural output per turn by the modern period. So when a building gets built matters for cultural boundary-setting and for cultural wins.

I don't think they quadruple culture output, but I've been wrong before. Where'd you read that? Also, for what it's worth, I believe they double after 1,000 years.