Unique bonuses for religions in Civ 4

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sovereign
As you guys may recall from Civ 1 and 2, all the civ's were identical with the exception of city names, leaders, and flag colors. All their units and rules were the exact same, so I'd be playing the exact same style, no matter what civ I played.

You played a different style depending on the map you played on. Which was the point of course, to illustrate the historical lesson that how civs evolved was dependent on WHERE they started and what they encountered, NOT on anything intrinsic to them that was inevitable in 4000 BC. Its a point I believe Herodotus made, and that Jared Diamond has amplified in our own time. It was historically good, and it DID allow for diverse gameplay and replayability. Some folks wanted something more like the different "races" of RTS games, and Firaxis gave it to them in Civ3. A lot of nasty discussion of racial traits, but also some strategy questions some folks really enjoyed. Like I said, Civ4 seems to get the strategy stuff without the racial essentialism stuff, though it still obscures the geographical determinism lesson. And, hence, is uncivish.

[pedrojedi]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I think precisely because of the above discussion - because religion is a very touchy subject, and any 'bonuses' would inevitably hit upon stereotypes (like jewish people with money, for example). Corporations are much 'safer' because there is less associated feeling related to them.

Of course, you don't worship Hephaestus and his earthly church, the Mining Inc.

Infidel!

[Blaupanzer]

We do have a game that supports the "Great Man" theory of history to some extent. Scientific determinism, and to a great extent geographical determinism, are mostly rejected as less playable. I think I can live with that in a game.

[johnmcd]

What if the bonus reflected the qualities of the holy city? If it was unusually productive, make it a production bonus, unusually scientific, make it a science bonus.

[snoopy369]

Hard to implement, but interesting certainly ...

[pedrojedi]

I would like to choose where the holy city will be when I found it; it's rather disappointing seeing those little frosty islands being sacred for some reason and it's not easy to build ONE missionary to spread it to a decent, productive city.

Maybe the Cathedral and such should be able to build missionaires.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by johnmcd
What if the bonus reflected the qualities of the holy city? If it was unusually productive, make it a production bonus, unusually scientific, make it a science bonus.

I like that.

or the bonus reflects the state of the civ at the time of its founding? If the civ was at war, the religion is militarist, if it was the science leader, the religion is intellectual, etc, etc.

[MoonWolf]

Originally posted by pedrojedi
I would like to choose where the holy city will be when I found it; it's rather disappointing seeing those little frosty islands being sacred for some reason and it's not easy to build ONE missionary to spread it to a decent, productive city.

Maybe the Cathedral and such should be able to build missionaires.

How are religions founded? It's someone, somwhere who get enlighted and get some followers. That can happen anywhere. It's not scientists working towards a goal; "let's engineer a religion, guys" (well, some do, but that's more like cults and people wanting to exploit others). But, I think that it's the city that deliver the last breakers for the religion tech to complete that get the holy city. I'm not sure in which city order Civ is counting breakers, but you can alter it somehow by lowering tech rates, change working tiles to non- (or remove work on tiles delivering ) and adding scientists to the city where you want the religion to be founded. It's not easy, but you can affect it a bit at least.

[The Priest]

I think it is founded in the largest city which doesn't already have a religion. Not quite sure how it works if everywhere does.

That is why they are often founded in a annoyingly small out of the way city - your core cities already have religion, its the newly settled one that doesn't. So don't found cities just in advance of getting a new religion, or have a missionary already there to get the old religion in quick.

[Cyrus The Mike]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


or the bonus reflects the state of the civ at the time of its founding? If the civ was at war, the religion is militarist, if it was the science leader, the religion is intellectual, etc, etc.

And what about if the civ is not at war, behind in the tech race, not overly cultural, and has 3 out of 5 or 6 unhappy cities? what cherecteristic will it inherit then...
(wow I'm being unusually picky today )


BTW: I still think religeons should be random events,.

And The Priest, you gave me another Idea, Shouldn't a settler comeing out of a soly (sp?) Taoist city found a Taoist town?

[Unimatrix11]

No, on the last one, for he could be a religious immigrant - leaving the city, BECAUSE it is taoist...

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by MoonWolf

How are religions founded? It's someone, somwhere who get enlighted and get some followers. That can happen anywhere. It's not scientists working towards a goal; "let's engineer a religion, guys" (well, some do, but that's more like cults and people wanting to exploit others).

In reality, religions need to be spread, have some sort of controlling mechanism, and the tolerance or support of a major tribe or a state in order to survive the millenia. The religion may outlive all of the above once it reaches a sort of critical mass; but without these things religions tend to die away. You could think of the first to discover techs that assign religions actually enable the national leaders to see the advantage of supporting that sect, and making it into a state religion.

As far as Civ IV is concerned, the religion goes into the last city you founded if it doesn't have a religion, another without a religion in reverse order of founding, else I am frankly not sure how it picks the city.

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer
I am frankly not sure how it picks the city.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=5066596#post5066596

and

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=5067025#post5067025

[Sovereign]

The "Holy City unique trait" is a pretty interesting idea. Probably better than my original idea. So if a Holy City is high in productivity and founds, say, Buddhism, then all Buddhist cathedrals will provide +2 hammers. Or if Judaism is founded in a high food producing city (like +10 surplus food), then each Judaism cathedral would give +1 food (good harvesting practices). And so on.

Not sure how to mod this though. I know the XML is easy to mod, just find "yields" or what have you, then change 0 to 1 or 2, for the desired amount of bonuses. Although the question is this, how can we tie the highest productivity then assign that value to the religion itself?

We could use the final value (like if the city produces 100 gold from towns, banks, groceries, etc.) and assign that to Religion X, giving Religion X +1 gold in each city it spreads? Not sure how to automatically assign the +1 gold to the cathedrals of Religion X as you build them (existing and upcoming cathedrals). Any ideas?

[snoopy369]

You'd almost certainly have to make it a DLL Mod, I imagine, to give this possibility.. but it's certainly doable.